Holly Lusk, a lawyer, lobbyist and former chief of staff to the Governor of Maine, will discuss how kindness is underrated. Holly will explain her just do it decision making method and why running a governor's office is actually like the West Wing.
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Episode #10: The West Wing with Holly Lusk
Holly [00:00:01] My advice is just do it. You just have to do it. There will be decisions that you make that are the right ones. There are decisions that you will make that will be the wrong ones. No one has a crystal ball. We all have to get in the habit of exercising certain muscles. And when it comes to decision making, that is just a muscle you have to exercise. You have to get in the habit of making a decision. Sometimes you start small and work up to bigger things, but it is something that you have to get comfortable doing. It's okay to look at the decisions that you've made and, and figure out what went, you know, well here, what went poorly there. But at the end of the day, I mean, no one, no one can function in a workplace if decisions are not made. And so, no decision oftentimes is just the worst decision because you're only reacting. No one is, is able to behave in a proactive manner. You're not able to influence things, whether it you know, it's policy or it's whatever it is in a workplace. You're not able to influence your environment unless you are making decisions and allowing people to execute on that. So, I feel, I feel very strongly for people who are kind of trying to get in the habit of doing that. Be OK with making mistakes.
Madeline & Becca [00:01:27] Welcome to The Madeline and Becca Podcast. The mission of our podcast is simple to inspire professional self-confidence in women everywhere. I'm Madeline. And I'm Becca. On our podcast, you will hear stories from real world influencers, women who have experienced tremendous success in their careers by building self-confidence. Thanks for joining us.
Becca [00:02:08] On today's episode, Madeline will be interviewing Holly Lusk. Holly is a lawyer and a lobbyist who has worked at the highest levels of state government, including as the chief of staff to a governor in Maine. Holly recently founded her own law and government affairs firm. Holly is an experienced decision maker and a trusted voice in every branch of government. She graduated from the University of Maine School of Law and she received her bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania. Holly will discuss how kindness is underrated, how the best way to make a decision is to just do it. And why running a governor's office is actually like the West Wing. Here's Madeline.
Madeline [00:02:58] Let's start, I like to start kind of at the beginning and just for our guests, can you tell us a little bit about who or what influenced you growing up that sparked your interest in law or government?
Holly [00:03:13] Oh, well, it's interesting, I remember, there was no one in my family who had done no law or, you know, government type things. I came from a medical family. My dad was a physician. My mom was a nurse. And so that was my whole, that was the lens that I looked at things through. So, I never really planned to go to law school, but my sister went to law school and I did everything my older sister did. So, she did ballet. I did ballet. She swam. I swam. She went to law school. I was like, guess I'm going to law school. So, that's what I ended up doing. It was not, it was not a, it was not a well-thought-out decision. But in the end, it ended up being the right one for me. And I was told that I was so argumentative as a child that it was the right place for me to go. [Music transition]
Madeline [00:04:10] I think a lot of our audience has watched things such as West Wing or Veep and are curious to know what it's really like behind the scenes because you hear chief of staff and then you see what it's like on TV. And, can you describe for our listeners what a chief of staff to a governor actually does day to day? What's it like?
Holly [00:04:35] Well, I think it probably differs, you know, in the office where you're at, in the state where I was the chief of staff. It's actually the smallest governor's office in the country. So, it could be a little bit different from what some other states have. I, I at least viewed my role as, you know, again, the chief adviser to the governor, the person who is there, you know, sort of at the end of the day, having those discussions with him in terms of where to go on certain policy and certain policy directions. Obviously, you're the manager of all the staff who are in the office. So, from an irregular like H.R. perspective, you are the person who controls the staffing and so forth. I think, you know, again, it varies from state to state in terms of how out in front chiefs of staff are or not. My personal view of the role is that you are not intended to be out in front. I tried not to be. I kind of did everything from eliminate a lot of the social media presence that I had to, you know, just trying to make sure that my role in the office was a little more behind the scenes with legislators and so forth. You know, it's not my job to, to be flashy or out in front. That's you know, he's the principal. He is the elected official. And my job is solely to be a supporting figure for him.
Madeline [00:06:03] What was it like traveling with the governor? I mean, just know in terms of.
Holly [00:06:07] A lot of fun.
Madeline [00:06:09] Right. You know, I imagine people what they see on TV is sort of the, you know, the government's celebrity style, you know, with the entourage. Was that what it's like? Can you give us an idea of what it was like on the ground?
Holly [00:06:21] Well, there are, there are some benefits to it.
Madeline [00:06:24] Yes.
Holly [00:06:25] You know, just in terms of getting on airplanes is a lot easier. And you do get a little spoiled in terms of how that process works going through the airport. But, but other than that, you know, no, there's not a huge celebrity aspect to it. You know, we're a lot of the, a lot of states, like bigger states have like, you know, the governor has their own plane and stuff like that. And it's very you know, she, she experienced. But, for a regular state where, you know, your governor is generally flying coach, it's a little bit different. But I will say, you know, it's so nice to have been in a place where people would come up to him a little bit. I mean, they would try to keep their distance because they knew he was working, but where people would come up and say, thank you. You're doing a great job, that kind of stuff. It really is. It's a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun for, for him to get to see people in the airport. And I have to say, traveling with him was an absolute riot. It just, it's, it was so much fun. It was so much fun. We had a lot of good times. I did not travel terribly far with him. We went to, to Spain for a short period of time, to Iceland. And obviously, I traveled with him to some of the Governors Association events throughout the country. And those were fantastic. But I did not fly with him to China. I know he had a couple of trips to there. So, I'm, I'm glad I did not have the long-haul flight. I don't sign up for that.
Madeline [00:07:49] I want to discuss leadership. And given your role, which, you know, was a lot of responsibility within the executive branch. You were tasked with managing people both in the office and obviously the executive branch. What was your leadership style and what did you find most effective in terms of a skill set?
Holly [00:08:11] I would say two things. First of all, I felt it was very important, and this is something that's been hammered home for me in every job I've been at every level that I've worked in. You have to treat people the same. We had a very egalitarian workplace, I would say, just in terms of how people treated each other. I mean, we just generally were kind to each other, nice to each other. And that didn't matter. It didn't matter what job you had. I mean, everyone just had to be treated the same in terms of a level of respect. The second thing I would say is, at least from my perspective and this, you know, every workplace is different. The speed at which you have to work is different, but at least, at the level of government that we were at, things happened so quickly, that you have to make decisions quickly. You know, it's not one of those things where you can sit around and hem and haw on things for months on end. So, my message to the people who worked in our office was by the second time you bring me an issue, you will get a decision. It doesn't, it doesn't matter what the topic is. It doesn't matter whether it's a big issue, small issue. You are going to get a decision because the important thing is that you have some direction and you're able to move forward. Sometimes it's absolutely, the right decision. Sometimes there are some flaws with it, but a decision will be made, and you will get to move forward and execute on that. And that's just simply because you can't sit around and wait for everything to happen and you can't just react to stuff all the time. I mean, it just has to be one of those things where you are allowing people to go out and do their jobs. And that to me has been really important. It's something that my own principle, that the governor instilled in us was that when we went to him, he would make a decision. He was a very decisive individual. And there is nothing better, regardless of where you are on the political spectrum or how you feel about the decisions that are made. There is nothing better than working for someone who is decisive because that allows you to go out and do your job. And there is nothing better than that.
Madeline [00:10:28] Like you said, the ability to make decisions is critical to being successful and to be able to keep things moving forward and also for your own self-confidence. And to follow up on that, obviously, you developed the ability to make decisions at some point along the line. For people who are working on that skill set, what type of advice can you give them to be able to have that self-assuredness to just be able to make a decision, not to hem and haw about it, to make it, to live with the consequences and to move forward?
Holly [00:10:58] Yeah, I mean, my advice is just do it. You just have to do it. There will be decisions that you make that are the right ones. There are decisions that you will make that will be the wrong ones. No one has a crystal ball. We all have to get in the habit of exercising certain muscles. And when it comes to decision making, that is just a muscle you have to exercise. You have to get in the habit of making a decision. Sometimes you start small and work up to bigger things, but it is something that you have to get comfortable doing. It's okay to look at the decisions that you've made and, and figure out what went, you know, well here, what went poorly there. But at the end of the day, I mean, no one, no one can function in a workplace if decisions are not made. And so, no decision oftentimes is just the worst decision because you're only reacting. No one is, is able to behave in a proactive manner. You're not able to influence things, whether it you know, it's policy or it's whatever it is in a workplace. You're not able to influence your environment unless you are making decisions and allowing people to execute on that. So, I feel, I feel very strongly for people who are kind of trying to get in the habit of doing that, be OK with making mistakes. It's going to happen. I have the same conversation with my seven-year old about doing her homework now that I'm a home schooler during quarantine. You know, she's a perfectionist, as I was at that age and has a daily freak out about getting spelling homework, you know, not perfectly right. Or math homework or whatever it is. And every day we have to have the same Q&A, which is what's going to happen if you make a mistake on your homework. And eventually, through a series of questions, we get to the answer. Nothing. Nothing will happen if you make a mistake on your homework. And so, I mean, obviously, as people get into the workplace, yeah, sure. Sometimes mistakes have consequences and that's fine. But no one is going to go through life not making a single mistake. So you, you'd best be comfortable with the thought that you're going to make mistakes and just allow yourself the comfort of saying, you know what, I'm going to you know, the second time an issue comes to me or the third time an issue comes to me, I'm just going to make a decision. And it might be the right one and it might be the wrong one, but I'm going to move forward. That at least, is what has worked for me. It may not work for other people, but I have found some solace in that, certainly. And I think the people who work in our office did too, because they knew we weren't going to hang around thinking about something for months. So.
Madeline [00:13:44] And do you have any advice for, on the other side of making a decision. Handling criticism about your decision. How do you build that sort of tough, tough skin, if I mean, if you get the criticism because, that will inevitably come, particularly in a role like you are in as the chief of staff to a governor?
Holly [00:14:02] I have found you know, it's, it's interesting. First of all, I have found in my career that most of the people that I have worked with have not been terribly critical when mistakes have been made. I've been very, very lucky to work in workplaces where people who are young, are given large amounts of responsibility early on and where the expectation is that mistakes will be made. Nothing, I was never in a workplace where it was, everything has to be perfect all of the time. And thank goodness for that, because, you know, I didn't have that level of stress of, of perfectionism, which I already imposed on myself. I don't have to, I don't need extra from, from external sources. But, I would say, you know, in terms of accepting criticism, one of the things that has been helpful for me over the years, as I've learned to hear this from people, is to kind of take a breath and understand that the motivations behind the criticism may not be the same ones that I would ascribe to myself. You know, if I was saying the same thing, it has been something, it's taken me a while to learn that not everyone saying those words would necessarily mean what I would say by saying those words, meaning that you can't project on other people. And so, the critique that they give you, the helpful critique, the constructive criticism. Take a breath, take it in and put it in the drawer. You know, it's like when we draft something, and you want to take some time to think about it. I would say the same thing about constructive criticism is put it in the drawer for a little while and then take it out later and think about it when you're perhaps not as antsy about it, not as anxious about it. And you can think more clearly about the words that someone has spoken to you. But, I'm also lucky to have not had to work in places where people were terribly critical. So that's also a good thing.
Madeline [00:16:19] And, can you tell us about an experience in your own career? I think I know I've had this and Becca has had this, and I'm sure many of our listeners have too, where perhaps you have a moment of self-doubt or your sort of paralysis and you're thinking, oh my God, can I actually do this? Do you have an example to give us about that and how you walked yourself through that and came out on the other side?
Holly [00:16:45] I think for me, a lot of it has been about taking on a new role. So, it's not necessarily, I haven't had a lot of paralysis I don't think about individual decisions or like inside a role like, you know, "do I wear the blue shirt of the red shirt today?" You know, I mean, it's not, not in that context. But in the context of taking on a brand-new role, those are the times when I have said to myself, can I do this? It's been those bigger decisions of, you know, do I want to move into an entirely new industry? Do I want to, you know, pick up and move to a different part of the country? Do I want to do this, or do I want to do that? Like some of those bigger, bigger decisions. And I have found in terms of the decision-making process for that, what has been helpful for me is not just to think about it from a rational intellectual perspective. We all can go through the process of being a pros and cons and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, sometimes you just have to sit with it for a little bit and think about it and imagine it and know how that makes you feel. And if you feel sick to your stomach or you feel a little this or you feel a little that, sometimes it's not the right decision to make. So that's, I guess, how I would how I would answer that particular question. It's a little more, it's an emotional thing oftentimes. You know, we're, we're I think people said about humans, like we're emotional animals who also think and I do think that is, I do think that is the case. So, those big decisions, sometimes you have to kind of sit with it and feel your feelings.
Madeline [00:18:37] And, you've managed a lot of stressful situations and managed your way through them, managed people, through them. Can you share with our guests any strategies for managing stress during times of crisis as you faced?
Holly [00:18:52] Well, I am a very bad person to ask about that. This is "like bad advice from Holly Lusk." I, because the way that I handle stress in a lot of ways is to not acknowledge it, which some people are very good at compartmentalizing. And some people are not. That is my personal specialty. When we come down to very stressful times is, you know, I, whether it has been filing motions in federal court and working with a team of seven people at eleven-fifty-eight p.m., who are all like, "how are you so calm with our deadline in two minutes?" I, I go into a mode where I get creepy calm. So, for me, I think it is entirely about compartmentalization in the moment where you're dealing with that intense stress. So that's been my personal M.O. In terms of how I deal with it. I don't acknowledge it. It is, I feel like a surgeon sometimes with some of these decisions, you just have to, you have to put all of the emotion out of your mind as long as you can come back to it later. You know, I would say for some other stuff that we've dealt with in the office where the stress was a little more long-term, a little more chronic, a little more, you know, the underlying condition of, of some stuff going on was that you know, that the stress was continuing. I think in that instance, you have to do, you have to do a little more self-care just because it's not, it's not the emergency stress that you're dealing with on a daily basis. It is something that is a little more long lasting. And for me, you know, it's been everything from making sure I get enough exercise and enough sleep to making sure that we talk about those sorts of things in the office, because that's what makes the difference to people, is that you are acknowledging things and you're having a conversation with them and you're encouraging them and you're making people feel better. So. [Music transition]
Madeline [00:21:08] I want to talk about self-advocacy within the workplace. And I know, everybody has to navigate workplace politics and organizational structures, and if you, personalities, can you give any advice or examples of how you've self-advocated within your own career?
Holly [00:21:32] Sure. First of all, let me say that from the perspective of, I view this a little bit, you know, there are a couple of different things to think about. One is advocacy, sort of like within an organization. And then you also have advocacy sort of externally in your organization, in marketing and those sorts of things. On the latter, I would say I had a colleague of mine at my first law firm who was very clear in saying, your work will speak for itself and if you do good work, people will know about it. And that's how you advance in your career, at least in the legal profession. I absolutely found that to be the case. I found that my, I didn't have to advocate for myself in terms of getting more work or getting more clients or those sorts of things because of word of mouth. And so that was, that was one thing that I found to be a little delightful in it. I think it can help some of those people who are a little more reticent to go out and market themselves, people who are more introverted, people who are just perhaps less inclined to, to want to engage in those social aspects of, of getting work on the internal structure of your organization. I, I'm on the just say no to table office politics camp. And I think that's probably not a popular place to be. But I just you know, again and this this kind of comes back to again, treating everyone in your workplace the same having the same level of respect for all of the people that you work with. And just generally being nice. I have I have worked in workplaces where, you know, either a boss was just not nice or didn't show a level of respect for people at all, you know, parts of the food chain. And that really affects people in the workplace. It makes them miserable. It makes their work difficult. It makes them. It makes them sad. So, it's a really terrible place to work. Luckily, I haven't had many of them. But so, from the perspective of, like, you know, office politics, I guess in my own mind, I equate office politics with a zero-sum game. A you know, this person has to do poorly in order for me to think that I'm doing well, you know, an internal competition to some extent. And so, from that perspective, I just don't engage in office politics. And I also, at least when I was running an office, didn't accept office politics. I mean, that was just not. It was not the way we were going to run our operation. People didn't have to go behind other people's backs or anything like that in order to succeed. It just it's, it's a terrible existence.
Madeline [00:24:39] No, I really like that answer because I think. A lot of people feel like they have to play the game and somebody else has to sink in order for them to rise. So, doing good work and not engaging in office politics and just doing what you do best is a great way of thinking of it.
Holly [00:25:01] Yeah, someone, I know this is like one of those things that's kind of out there just in general as a statement. But I've had so many people say to me over the years, you know, especially in the workplace, being nice is just underrated. It's an underrated quality. And I don't mean by that people pleasing. I don't feel like a super-duper people pleaser myself. But being nice is a really underrated quality. So, you know, what people have said to me over the years in in terms of how to conduct yourself in the workplace, say what you mean, mean what you say and don't say it mean. And I think that, that is something I've tried to keep up. And I do think it makes a huge difference. I do.
Madeline [00:25:52] Be nice.
Holly [00:25:52] Be nice, but it's one of those things where, you know, I you know, it's funny, I have a lot of friends in terms of office politics and that sort of thing, like, it's funny because I am, I am a huge fan of business in America. But at the same time, I also think of like places where I feel like I belong, and places where I feel like I don't belong. And, and over the years, I think, you know, and I have a lot of relatives and friends and colleagues who have kind of made their way in house into more corporate America and that sort of thing. And, and we have these discussions of what the workplace is like. And I'm like, "I don't belong there." So, it's, it is nice. I like hearing other people's stories of office politics that I don't have to participate in. So, it's, it's nice that I've been able to kind of find a niche for myself outside of that little bit. So.
Madeline [00:26:49] And do you have a particular career high or accomplishment that stands out in your mind, something big or small. But that's a high point in your career.
Holly [00:27:01] For me, I would say one of the high points from, you know, it was, it was high profile and it was high pressure and it was large amounts of fun, was an argument I had in front of our supreme, our, state Supreme Court on behalf of the governor. And it was, it was a bizarre little, I shouldn't say, a little. It was kind of, it was big. It was a bizarre battle that we had, sort of like internally in state government that resulted in my arguing his case in front of our state Supreme Court as a health policy adviser randomly. But I play a lawyer also. And so, it was that was a lot of fun. The preparation for it was a lot of fun doing, was a lot of fun. I also had a six-month old at the time. And so, I got to spend the night in a hotel the night before the argument. So that was primo. That was really fantastic. Getting a full night's sleep. But that was for me, that was a, that was a big professional high because, you know, again, you walk into the courtroom and the media is there and the cameras are there. And it was just, it was a really fun, high profile thing that I felt I did a good job on, and so that's, that's my personal kind of like high. I would say.
Madeline [00:28:36] Love it. And on the flip side of that, do you have a moment, maybe a challenge or failure moment? Everybody faces things like this. And obviously, you've gotten through it successfully. Can you describe for us an experience like that and how you handled it?
Holly [00:28:54] You know, it's interesting, I would say, I feel ...so, I do believe strongly that, you know, in the statement that people, you know, are making more commonly these days that you can't succeed without failure. You know, you have to, whether it's the grit scale, you know, they came out with at my, my old college or, you know, it's those sorts of things like acknowledging like how, how people are willing to kind of put the effort into accomplish something like, you know, a long term goal. I do think that failure sometimes is important in getting people to understand how to succeed. So, for me, when I was doing trial work, I think, you know, the number of jury trials I had was somewhere in the and we would do it as a team. You know, it was not like a just, you know, me myself kind of going off and having jury trials. But with, you know, I would be there with a colleague. And I think, you know, the first one that we had was a loss. And it was about three months after I started as a trial lawyer. And all of the ones subsequent to that were wins. And I would say that, you know, the, the loss was really, really important for me because I got to feel that early on, both in terms of having, you know, I was twenty-five years old and I had you know, I was working on a case with a, with a client who was, you know, probably double my age, you know a physician. And it was just, it was really important for me to understand how personal it was for people, you know, as a lawyer we're a little bit removed from the situation. You get very invested, obviously, but you, you're removed. It's not your license. It's not, you know, your money. It's not any of those ... It's not your reputation. It is someone else's. And so, you know, from my perspective, I think that was, it was a loss, but it was a really good loss because at least for me personally, I was able to kind of say like, "I don't want to do that again. I don't want to go through that. Don't want to deal with that." I really, really want to have, you know, to have wins. And so, it was just, it was it was helpful for me to, to have that professional loss. It really was. [Music transition]
Madeline [00:31:31] Can you? I just want to talk a little bit about motherhood briefly and how did you navigate?
Holly [00:31:37] I'm an expert at that as well. So happy to talk.
Madeline [00:31:39] Just, you know, can you give any advice to our guests about how to navigate a high achieving professional role? And also, being the mother of two small children.
Holly [00:31:52] Yeah. You know, it's interesting, I, I would say, two different things. First of all, I think people often feel like it's really, really important to just always, you know, have this trajectory of "I have to go up a step up, a step up, a step up, a step constantly, whether it's, you know, it's their own industry or, you know, or what have you. And there is that pressure to kind of keep moving in a particular direction. I would say we go through so many life changes during our career. That I hate to see people feel that pressure to kind of go in, in a, you know, a particular way that's kind of imposed on them externally. You know, different parts of you want different things at different times as you get older. I mean, if you had said to me when I was twenty-six that I would end up working for myself at any point in the future because I wanted more professional autonomy or I wanted to be able to spend, spend summers with my kids or what have you, I would have thought you were insane. But that's exactly how things ended up for me. And that's because it was a choice that I made. So, yeah, my career now looks very different than I would have anticipated when I was 26. But it's because I wanted different things. And I feel like, you know, we all have this externally imposed pressure to lean in and feel like we're constantly advancing. Well, the real effect is like we advance in different ways. I mean, the, what I'm doing now, so that your listeners know, is I left the governor's office and I went and opened up my own shop as a lobbyist and my control over my schedule now. I mean, obviously when I'm in session with the legislature, it's one thing, but my control over my schedule is at a level that I never would have had, whether I was, you know, in-house or I was at a firm. It's just something that works for me at this particular point in my career. Do I think I'm going to do this for the rest of my natural life? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not really worried about it. But it is something that has allowed me to develop professionally in a different way. I'm the one who has to, you know, do my payroll stuff. I'm the one who has to go buy my malpractice insurance. I'm the one who has to, you know, do any number of things on a professional level that I didn't have to do before. And so, from my perspective, yeah, it might be something different than, you know, going back to a law firm as a partner or, you know, going in-house. But it's, it is just a different level of professional development that I wanted for myself, and I feel very comfortable with it. So that's, that's, that's one thing is that, you know, it is amazing the number of choices that you have available to you. I really do think that. So, from the perspective of having kids, don't be scared. I would say to, to take a leap and, and make a jump and you know, whether you're going to go be self-employed or you're going to go into a, you know, a business that you had no idea you were gonna go into. Just do it. You know, I mean, like it. You'll, you will never, you'll never believe the wealth of professional development you will get from it. The second thing is, I was you know, we all have a little bit of mom guilt, you know. So, do I spend enough time with them? Do we like baking cookies together? Do we do all of these like, you know, wonderful things that everyone pretends they're doing, like during quarantine or whatever, but they are totally not. So, I think it was last Mother's Day, my now seven-year old, with her Girl Scouts troop. They did a, you know, a few little things or they wrote down on little slips of paper and put it into a, you know, a Mason jar. Ten things that they loved about their mothers. Right? This is like all in for her little troop. And I was very pleasantly surprised to see in there. It was, you know, "I love how you hug me. You know and I love how you read books to me and stuff like that." And one of the things that she put in those little 10 slips of paper was, "I love how you work." And I think that was the one that I cried on. It was not like the, I love it when you kiss me. I love when you hug me and all these sorts of things, it was like "I love how you work." And I would not have guessed that. I was very surprised by that. I mean, you know. Sure. She got some benefits, right? She got to go to the governor's mansion for the Christmas party and stuff like that. So, she understood there is some benefit to this. Right? But at the same time, I was just I. I couldn't believe it. And it made me feel very proud that I'm a working mom. [Music transition]
Madeline [00:37:25] What is your best piece of advice for our listeners that they can apply to their own careers, specifically with respect to developing professional self-confidence?
Holly [00:37:36] I think, at least from my perspective, I think self-confidence in the workplace. You know and again, I haven't struggled with an imposter syndrome. I don't think, partly because of the fact that, again, I was given responsibilities very early on. And so, I guess from my perspective, the best way to shore up your, your self-confidence in the workplace is, is by doing. You have to, to do, to execute. To accomplish. It's not so much, you know, how do I feel, or did I make the right decision about this or can I, can I do this? I don't know. You just have to do it. And slowly but surely, as you do something, it's just like baking pies. You know like, the more pies I make. And I do make a lot, you know, the more I do it, the better I get. You know, it's just it's like anything else, you know? It's, it's like batting at the softball cage. It's like making pies. It's like going bowling. And I do not do a lot of that. The, the more you do something, the better you're going to get, the more comfort, comfortable you're going to be. I mean, to me, that's the that's the key is just to, just to do, just to do, just do it. [Music transition]
Becca [00:39:00] If you enjoyed listening to our podcast, hit subscribe now and leave us a review. Thank you to Nico Vettesse for composing our original music. And thank you always to our home team of friends and family for supporting us in our mission. This episode was produced and edited by Madeline and Becca. Thanks for tuning in. And remember, you are somebody.