Kikkan is an Olympic gold medalist, 5 time Olympian, and champion cross-country skier. Kikkan will tell us what it's like to win an Olympic gold medal, she will discuss the future of U.S. skiing and she'll tell us how to plan an epic comeback.
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Episode #14: Plan your epic comeback with Kikkan Randall
Kikkan [00:00:00] I really started to realize that it is the mind. It is the conversation that's going on in your head. And if we come up against a challenge, we're intimidated by our competitors, we're frustrated with the weather or whatever's going on. Our natural tendency is to give in to those feelings to kind of go, oh, man, and feel bad. But if you take a step back, you realize a lot of that stuff is out of your control. So, it really doesn't get you anywhere to think about it, dwell on it. And if you can turn your lens a little bit and say, yeah, but OK now is uncomfortable, but tomorrow could be better. OK. What can I do today that just gives me that little success just to feel good about? You know, a step forward. And then you'd be surprised how the next day might be better. And then because you didn't back down, because you kind of dug in, maybe you worked on a weakness or you found happiness somewhere to kind of just keep you moving. All of a sudden, you get to that better day. You appreciate it more. You're stronger because you kept moving. And I have found so many of the best things that happened in my career and have happened in my life have come after something really hard, something where I had all the excuses in the world to quit, divert. But I didn't. I just decided, see it through that next step. Keep it going, because I'm going to believe that the future will be better. [Music transition]
Madeline & Becca [00:01:31] Welcome to The Madeline and Becca Podcast. The mission of our podcast is simple, to inspire professional self-confidence in women everywhere. I'm Madeline. And I'm Becca. On our podcast, you will hear stories from real world influencers, women who have experienced tremendous success in their careers by building self-confidence. Thanks for joining us.
Becca [00:02:10] On today's episode, Madeline will be interviewing Kikkan Randall. Many of you may have watched Kikkan and her teammate Jessie Diggins become the first American cross-country skiers to win Olympic gold medals at the women's team sprint event in PyeongChang. Kikkan is a five-time Olympian and champion cross-country skier. Kikkan has won 17 U.S. national titles and made twenty-nine podiums on the World Cup. Not only is Kikkan one of the most accomplished American cross-country skiers of all time, she became a mother in between Olympic Games. In 2019, she ran the New York City Marathon in under three hours, just months after completing treatment for breast cancer. Kikkan radiates positivity and is a passionate advocate for girls in sports through Fast and Female, an organization she co-founded. Kikkan will tell us what it's like to win an Olympic gold medal, she will discuss the future of U.S. skiing, and she'll tell us how to plan an epic comeback. Here's Madeline. [Music transition]
Madeline [00:03:19] So, let's start off today by discussing how you got into cross-country skiing, I read that you learned to ski contemporaneously with walking. Can you tell us how you got interested in the sport?
Kikkan [00:03:30] I was really fortunate to have an active family. And my dad grew up in Wisconsin but fell in love with alpine skiing. So, when I was born, we were living in Salt Lake City. And he was working at a rental shop. He brought home the smallest boots and the smallest skis they had and kind of put me in there. And because I was so small, my knees kind of went up to the edge of the boots. And he kind of held me up and he built this little hill for me in the front yard. And I just started sliding on snow before I could officially walk.
Madeline [00:03:57] And did you have, so were your parents, cross-country skiers and other members of your family?
Kikkan [00:04:02] I definitely have a family history in the sport. My Uncle Chris was a 1976 Olympian. My Aunt Betsy was the 1980 Olympian and cross-country skiing. My mom competed at the university level for University of Utah. My mom's side of the family is very athletic. My dad came more from attritional like football track and field, but like I said, fell in love with Alpine. So, it kind of came together. And what was really fun about it is I got exposure to all these different types of skiing and I certainly had my Aunt Betsy to chase around the trails and that kind of inspired my Olympic dream early. But I also really credit those years I spent just free skiing on the mountain, going off jumps, kind of testing my limits for giving me this really broad skill set and for showing me some things that I wasn't very good at, that I had to kind of persevere. And then things that were more in tune to my strengths and I could naturally kind of build on. So, my childhood was just this mixture of experiences kind of building up. And then until I ultimately got to the point where I started to see the future in one particular sport.
Madeline [00:05:02] And so how did you end up picking Nordic skiing over other sports?
Kikkan [00:05:08] It was an exploratory process. When I got into high school, I was getting pretty serious about running because I met this awesome coach. And I really loved the people on the team. I loved the fact that I could kind of put in the pure effort and see it build over time. So, I was starting to think like maybe I want to run in college. And all my running friends were doing cross-country skiing as a high school sport in the winter. And I had just been coming off some alpine racing. And so, I tried to do both, but it was little bit tricky. And so, I just, kind of got pulled into Nordic because of the people. And then I started to realize that, you know, in running kind of the history had already been made. But in cross-country skiing, no American woman had ever medaled in the sport. And I found that it was kind of this combination of that pure effort of running. Still the thrill of going fast downhill, a bit of a team element, kind of like soccer. And so, it just kind of started to be my sport where it came together. And when I decided at 16, the 2002 Olympics were just three years away. And looking back, it was probably a little overly ambitious to focus on making the Olympic team so young. But they had just introduced this shorter sprint event that happened to play to my strengths. And it was just a dream that got me excited. And I said, I'm going all in.
Madeline [00:06:23] So for our younger listeners, why is Nordic skiing so amazing? Can you give us your pitch on the sport?
Kikkan [00:06:32] I think it's one of the closest feelings to flying. I mean, you're gliding on the snow and sure, you're going up tough uphill’s and it takes an element of work. But when you get in good shape and you're cruising along and you're flying down these downhill, sliding across the snow, it's just this effortless, very pure feeling. I love the fact that it uses your whole body. So, you just end up feeling really strong, like you can do anything. And it is so playful.
Madeline [00:07:02] I'm not a skier. So, can you tell me how fast you actually get going in Nordic?
Kikkan [00:07:10] I think our races are supposed to be about a third flat. A third uphill and third downhill. So, you know, we can do a 5K in 12 minutes on a fast day, which is pretty fast considering the terrain. But you could also have some days where it's snowing and your slogging through the slush and it's slow. So, it's hard to be a kind of a time or speed-based sport. But I have certainly hit almost 50 miles an hour going down some hills on a fast day. And you're definitely hanging on by the skin of your teeth because you don't have metal edges and you're fine as long as you can go straight, and nothing gets in your way.
Madeline [00:07:48] Yeah. That's pretty fast.
Kikkan [00:07:48] We train on these roller skis, which are a great way to simulate the ski movement in the summer, but they don't have brakes. So, I've also gone close to 50 miles an hour downhill on those, and that is nerve racking. Probably a little bit dangerous.
Madeline [00:08:02] So tell me terms of your training as you started to get really serious about Nordic. What was your training schedule like? I think everybody, all of our listeners are so curious what I mean, as you started to actually get competitive and in high school and then also with the U.S. Ski Team. What was the intensity and the training schedule like?
Kikkan [00:08:25] Well, it's been really fun now that I've retired to go back and look over my training logs and really see the progression I made. So, in high school, it was mostly once a day after school practice. It was a lot of intensity because we were either doing intervals or chasing each other around or racing. So, I didn't train a huge volume in high school, but I got a lot of intensity. And because I did cross-country running, cross-country skiing and track and field, I had a lot of diversity kind of in my year, which I think was important. Then, I graduated from high school, started focusing on training full time. That's when I started to go into more of a two a day routine. But every year I had to be, I had to be careful about building up enough to see the progression, but not get carried away because cross-country skiing is the long game. It's like you're like a fine wine. You just, you know, it takes a while before you get to that premium age. So, it was this kind of stairstep buildup, I'd try to add I don't know, 50 to 100 hours a year and we would train from May 1st until November as our kind of prep period, putting money in the bank, so to speak. And that was twice a day, six days a week. We trained really hard for three-week blocks, then we'd take the fourth week to kind of recover, absorb a little bit. We're still training twice a day most days. But you just tone it down a bit. Absorb and then springboard to the next three weeks. So, it's pretty intense, pretty long training period. And then we would race from November through the end of March. So, then, then you're drawing that money out of the bank, so you just hope you have enough in there to make it all the way to the end of the season. Then we'd take three, four weeks off in April and then you do it again. So, it sounds like a lot when you look at it that way, but it really was a lifestyle. I you know, set it up so that I could get up, I could have a healthy breakfast. Got most days I got to train with teammates, which was incredible. I'm a big team person. So, to go out and be with like-minded people, chasing goals, working with a coach. It made the hours pass by and we just kind of worked through these progressions. We'd do intervals twice a week, strength training twice a week, go really long, once a week. So, you always had these, like, little things to be focusing on. And then you get to the end of the week and you tally up your training log and go, "whoa, I actually trained a lot this week" and then it's the end of the month and go, "well, it's been a good month" and then you get to be in a season and go "whoa, I trained all these hours" and then it was fun to see it grow year to year. And then I hit a certain point where I started to be hitting the upper end of what my body could handle. And I was, I was getting success at the international level. So, then it wasn't just about adding more. It was about being smarter with the time I was spending. And that's where I think the value of building up over time really comes in handy because that experience piece allows you to be smarter, not just harder.
Madeline [00:11:11] And, you know, as a young athlete, you were competing really on a world stage. Can you tell us what strategies did you use in terms of dealing with the pressures of such competitive skiing, so young?
Kikkan [00:11:25] That is a great question. And I was really fortunate to have some great role models and coaches and mentors, and I really got to test that out in 2002 at the Olympics when I'm 19 years old. First Olympics. Forty-fourth place is my best race. You know, again, not spectacular on the results sheet, but I was able to look at and go, "I think that was one of my best races of the season." And I've now gotten my feet wet. I've got, I'm getting all this experience and I know that that's going to build me up to ultimately be competitive someday.
Madeline [00:11:58] So for our listeners, particularly our younger listeners, who are working on developing that self-confidence. Do you have any advice for them about what helped you along the way?
Kikkan [00:12:10] Yeah, I think there are some really key things that helped me kind of on a micro level, both in terms of just achieving my goals in high school and then the macro level of, OK, I want to win Olympic medals someday. So, we all hear about the power of goal setting. But it is so true that if you take the time to sit down and think about what it is that really just excites you, that goal that you want to get and you write that down and then you go, OK, how am I going to get there? And you start breaking it down into smaller and smaller steps until you literally have something that you can go out and focus on each day. And then each day you go out and you do it and you get to check that off the list. You get to pat yourself on the back and go, that's a little success. And I know if I do enough little successes, those will build up and put me in a position to get my goal. And so that was high school. That was, again, writing the training log in every day and going back and saying, OK, how am I doing in relation to my goals? And then when it came time for the Olympics, after those games in Salt Lake and I knew I wanted to go for the podium, I sat down with my coaches and we mapped out what we thought it would take to get there. And as we mapped it out, it was going to take 10 years. At 19 years old, that's incredibly daunting. But at the same time, the dream of standing on the podium was something that I could imagine that would get me out of bed every day. And I would think about it when I went to bed at night. And then I didn't have to tackle it all at once. I had to tackle these stair steps. And each step I got; my confidence grew. So, I'm a really firm believer in you've got to map it out. You've got to create that roadmap. Because then you can believe that it's possible and then you can steadily work on those steps.
Madeline [00:13:52] I love that. That's such great advice about goal setting. And I want to ask so, one of the topics we always like to discuss with our guests is how to deal with a challenge or a setback. And so, I know in the Sochi Olympics, which was later on in your career, where you missed qualifying to advance to the sprint quarterfinals just by a fraction of a second. And of course, this is four years before you go on to win a gold medal. So, can you tell us, how did you overcome the disappointment of that race? And what advice do you have for our listeners about not giving up after a challenge or a setback?
Kikkan [00:14:28] Yeah, I mean, I could say it now because I have a gold medal in my pocket, but I really do believe whether or not that gold medal had happened, what the experience I had in Sochi was probably one of the most powerful things that has ever happened to me in my life. And it was weird how I was actually already thinking about that moments after the race, when I found out I had been eliminated. So, Sochi fell approximately 14 years into my process. So, I had been dreaming about that medal, working towards it. You know, as I came in those last couple of years, it was feeling possible. And that in of itself was a victory, just knowing I could contend for an Olympic gold medal. But because I think I was so far into the process I also knew that I was hanging all of my hopes and dreams on one day in a race where I'm racing with five other people, it's snow conditions could be anything. And so, the day before the race, I made myself a promise and that was, if I went out the next day and I executed my plan. I didn't, I took risks. I didn't, I left no regrets on the snow that no matter what the result, I could walk away with my head held high. And I knew in my heart that that meant being on top of the podium. But I was kind of ready to just lay it all out there. And so, as the race day unfolded. I was putting it all out there. I was giving it everything I had. And when I found out I was eliminated; I was definitely disappointed. And I knew that a lot of other people were disappointed because they were counting on me to do that. But I also knew that I had done the best I possibly could. I had prepared; I hadn't backed down. I hadn't counted myself out. And that, I think, is the most important thing. And I had a teammate who had qualified, so in those first few moments I was able to run over to her and tell her everything I knew about the course. And I think being able to kind of pour some of that energy into a teammate really helped me. Then as the, after the Olympics I had a big choice to make. I was in contention for the overall World Cup sprint globe, but I was feeling pretty beat up and it would have been really easy to be like, you know what? Screw the season. I'm going to go sit on the beach. But instead, I went. You know what? It's only three more weeks. And even if these women pummel me for three more weeks, I at least get to finish the season knowing I left it all out there. And it was surprising to see that the racing at the Olympics actually kind of kicked me up a gear again, and I finished the season stronger than ever and I brought home that crystal globe for the third year in a row. And I was so proud of it because I knew I could have walked away when it got tough, but I saw it through, and I think that is what we have to think about when we're facing something really tough. You, for one, you never know. Sometimes one tough day is just before the catalyst that takes you to another level. And even if you put it out there and you grit through it and you deal with the challenge and you don't ultimately get your goal, you get the satisfaction of knowing you didn't give up. You saw it through. You've learned so much about yourself. And I think that was the springboard that allowed me to really enjoy four more years of ski racing and ultimately help set up our team to win that medal in 2018.
Kikkan [00:17:47] So do you credit then your mindset for not feeling that burnout and wanting to quit then?
Kikkan [00:17:56] I've really started to realize that it is the mind. It is the conversation that's going on in your head. And if we come up against a challenge, we're intimidated by our competitors, we're frustrated with the weather or whatever is going on. Our natural tendency is to give in to those feelings to kind of go, oh, man, and feel bad. But if you take a step back, you realize a lot of that stuff is out of your control. So, it really doesn't get you anywhere to think about it and dwell on it and if you can turn your lens a little bit and say, "yeah, but OK now is uncomfortable, but tomorrow could be better. OK. What can I do today? That just gives me that little success just to feel good about, you know, a step forward." And then you'd be surprised how the next day might be better. And then because you didn't back down, because you kind of dug in, maybe you worked on a weakness or you found happiness somewhere to kind of just keep you moving. All of a sudden you get to that better day, you appreciate it more, you're stronger because you kept moving. And I have found so many of the best things that happened in my career and have happened in my life have come after something really hard, something where I had all the excuses in the world to quit, divert, but I didn't. I just decided to see it through that next step. Keep it going, because I'm going to believe that the future will be better.
Madeline [00:19:22] I love that. And I want to talk a little bit about the fact that you became a mother between two Olympic Games, which is absolutely incredible. And I think women often hear that it's an either-or choice. Being a mother, being an elite athlete. And I know after having had your son, you weren't guaranteed sponsorship spot on the team, all of that. Were you afraid that you weren't going to be able to return to compete at the same level?
Kikkan [00:19:49] There was certainly a lot of uncertainty. But again, this is where I tried to harness that mindset and go, well, I don't know if I'll be able to return back, but I also don't know that I won't be able to come back. And the way I saw it was, I've had an amazing career and I get a chance just to try again, to ski race a couple more years and I get a chance to start this chapter of my life that I've been so excited about. So, let's give it a try. Let's see what I can do. And if ultimately, I get into the process and for some reason my health, the baby health, it's just not working, then I can say, hey, I tried and I, I think I could, you know, I could walk away satisfied. But if you don't try, then you never know. And, you know, I started to look around and I start to see other, find other women's stories who had successfully returned to competition. And I, and I would look for people, who are the experts in their field or who had had personal experience with it. My strength and conditioning coach had had a baby the year before. So, we worked together on strategy. My coach, his wife that had three kids and kept running like mad. So, you know, we just really got strategic and we just said, why not? Why not try? And it turns out that our bodies are amazing. And I think if we really look back at the course of history, women, you know, back in the Stone Age or, you know, when they were working the fields, they didn't just stop and sit back for nine months. Like, our bodies are built to keep going. Our bodies are built to like, do what we're used to doing. So, I just, I approached it with curiosity. You know, I didn't put too much pressure on myself, but I also said there's no reason I can't come back.
Madeline [00:21:26] And so tell us about how becoming a mother influenced your training routine.
Kikkan [00:21:33] I think becoming a mother actually had a lot of positive benefit to my training. Number one, previous to having a kid, I was going all over the place. I was going to training camps in Europe. And I was constantly on the road, which was great. I was getting access to cool training grounds and great training partners. But my training was getting kind of segmented, so I when I had Breck, we decided I would stay home for a really good extended period of time and I would gradually build up my training again. I could add in one thing at a time so we could make sure I was handling it before taking it to the next level. So, I had this just really nice progression. Staying at home, being in my familiar environment where I had a great support system. My sleep pattern, for sure was different. I'm a big sleeper, so I was a little bit concerned about how that would affect me. But it just changed. I still got really quality sleep. It just was maybe two hours at a time instead of 10 hours at a time. And thankfully, I had an amazing support system. So, my husband, my parents, you know, they helped me fit in that time I needed to kind of recover. But I also had this incredible boost of happiness because those parents out there, you know, the moment your kid is born, your life changes forever. And it's just this overarching feeling. And I think it gives you an incredible boost. I mean, there probably is some sort of chemical hormone thing going on. But I felt so supremely happy that I didn't sweat the not getting sleep. I didn't sweat bad workouts because when I was out there, it was like, hey, I get a chance to be out here. I get a chance to keep doing what I love. And I get to be a mom. So, I'm going to make the most of my time at training so that when I come back, I can make the most of my time being mom. And, and I think that mental perspective of not living and dying by whether or not a workout went well or perfect or anything, again, it came back down to, I'm going to use this time, I'm going weigh out my best effort. And no matter what, when I come home, I have a little boy that's happy to see me.
Madeline [00:23:32] And that's the best feeling in the world.
Kikkan [00:23:34] It is. It is.
Madeline [00:23:35] So, let's talk a little bit about the Winter Olympics and PyeongChang. This was your fifth and final likely final Olympics. You've been in the sport for so long, racing competitively. Can you first tell us about the moment that your coach told you that you had been chosen to be on the sprint team? Because I know that wasn't a guaranteed.
Kikkan [00:23:55] Yeah, it was it was pretty dicey for me coming into those games. Up until December, I had totally been on track. And then I developed a stress fracture in my foot. And for the six weeks leading up to the games, I had to do alternative training. I had to back out of the race schedule. And my teammates were all skiing incredibly, fast, so I didn't know going into the Olympics if I would even get to start a single race, let alone the team sprint, which is the race I had been looking forward to for the four years. So, it was 36 hours before the race, and I'm sitting in the athlete village in our room about 10 o'clock at night with one of my teammates who was also in consideration for the team sprint. The coach walks in and you can tell from the look on his face that he's ready to tell us they've made the decision and he lets me know that they've chosen me kind of because my experience and the course and my trajectory. So inside, I'm like this little, you know, pistol fire and like, oh, my gosh, this is the best news ever. But my teammate sitting next to me has just heard the opposite news. And what was so incredible in that moment is she turned to me and she said, I believe in you as much as I believe in myself. What can I do to help? And that just lifted me up. It was so incredible to see, because she could have gotten up, stormed out, thrown something. I'm sure that's what she was feeling inside. But she was there. She was supportive. We went out the next day. We did a workout all together. The whole team was together the morning of the race. So, it was just such an incredible feeling to know we had that support and that really, we had been working on this goal as a team. So, I felt tremendous responsibility being one of two athletes representing that team out on the snow. And I knew it would be my last Olympic race. So I had that, in this instance, I really wanted to make sure that I was walking away from this race knowing I had rolled my eyes back into my head if I had to like I was going to leave it all out there. No regrets. And, but yet buoyed from such this positive sense because of the team spirit we had.
Madeline [00:25:57] Take us to the start of the race. Here it is, it's the biggest stage in the world. You've got so many things, so much going on in your head. What were you thinking? What was your mindset at the start?
Kikkan [00:26:08] Well this is where 18 years of practice really came in handy. It doesn't matter actually how long you've been ski racing or at what level or how successful, you will always get nervous. So, I was for sure spending the whole day managing all those butterflies, managing that conversation. But I just really tried to keep it as simple as possible, remind myself how hard I had worked, how hard as a team we had prepared for this, knowing that I was ready, that I just had to go out and ski hard and hang in there. And I was up against two of the greatest skiers of all time. Everybody was talking about Norway versus Sweden. And so, I was definitely anxious about being able to keep us in the race. But, like I said, I was prepared, and I was, I was really just reminding myself of all those things that keep you confident and just reminding myself I didn't have to do anything crazy. You know, I just had to do what I do, and I had to leave it out there. And I listened to a country playlist and I just kind of found like little words in all of the choruses that just kind of contributed to this like strengthening spirit. And then we had face paint on. We had our relay socks on. And so, we also kept that element of fun in there, which I think is really important because, you know, this is the Olympics, like this is a big deal. But we also choose to do this. We get to do it because it's fun. And I think at that point, I was just like, OK, yeah, let's, let's just soak this in and go for it. Leave it out there so that you can just walk away this great feeling.
Madeline [00:27:36] So, tell us about the race itself. Once you got out, you started and you're out there and you're doing those laps. Describe what was going through your head and the focus and what you were feeling when you were out there.
Kikkan [00:27:48] So, the gun goes off and the way a team sprint works is there's, we each ski three laps on the course and we take turns, we alternate between. And there's this about 30-meter tag zone that you come into it about 20 miles an hour. So, the tags can be really hectic with nine other teams in there, you know, with three different laps, all out efforts. You've got to, you've got to pace it, but you've got to keep yourself in the race. So, we went out and I just kind of let myself kind of tuck in. I stayed near the front, but I tried to conserve energy on that first lap and there were a couple bumps behind me, so it was good to be kind of in the front. So, made it through that lap feeling good. Jessie goes out for her first lap. In between, they would take my skis off and put them on a bench and re-wax. So, I'm jogging around, my skis are on the bench. I see Jessie and the field starts to come down into the stadium. And I'm kind of like, guys, I need my skis. She's coming. So, it was a little bit of a close call in that first exchange. Like I had to click into my skis, get in the zone, and she came in right away. So, as a team, we had practiced a lot of tags. So, we nailed like all of our tags that day. We kind of had picked a spot a little bit out of the main, a direct line, which, you know, took a little bit extra effort, but it also kept us out of trouble. So, second lap we go out, this is when I know the pace is going to accelerate because Marit and Charlotte, the two racers I was kind of up against, their better distance skier so, they know they've got to try to wear the sprint out of me. So, the pace accelerates, but as we go around the course, I'm matching them stride for stride. And I felt like, as we went around that loop, my confidence was growing because then I knew it was going to come down to one more lap and I kind of felt like, I can do anything on one more lap. So, tag off the Jessie again on her second lap, she actually put some hurt into the two racers she was with. So, it broke the field down to three teams. So, she came in to tag me for my final lap. We were leading the race. So, I was being a little strategic. I went out in the lead, but then I kind of let Marit and Charlotte come around me like thinking, OK, conserve, you know, so I can make a move I need to. But as they got around me, like a little bit of snow started to open up. And I knew I just, I couldn't let that happen. I had to be right on them. So, I did accelerate a little bit. I got a little excited. I kind of came into the back of the Swedish skier a little bit. As we went up that climb, I just glued myself right there because I knew my job was to keep us in the race and Jessie would do the magic on the last lap. I didn't need to try to do anything crazy or heroic, so I just kept this right there and came into the stadium, tagged off to Jessie, and got to just follow in the snow, you know, completely in physical agony, but, feeling so good because I knew I did my job and it took me 30 seconds or so to compose myself. I get up, I see them coming down into the stadium. I see Jessie's in third, but she goes wide, like almost off the course. And then I'm kind of going like, oh, gosh, I don't know if I can watch this. And then, while they're coming around the final turn, I run over to the finish and I'm peeking out behind the photographers and I start yelling, but then I realize it's down to us and Sweden and the Swedish teammate is right next to me, and she's yelling. So, I yell a little louder and then she goes a little louder and like we have this like yelling match. So, we're like trying to will our teammates to the finish. And from our perspective, they were dead on. So, you saw the lunge at the line. I didn't know. I had to look at the scoreboard, thinking it was going to be a photo finish. And then I saw number one, United States. And I was so unprepared to see us win the race that I let out the most ugly, awkward, primal yell. I ran over to Jessie and tackled her right away. And it just, it was the most magical moment because our whole team was right there. So, we as soon as we got up, we just got to run over and share this moment. And to see all of our teammates, our coaches, supporters, our family, you know, my family was there. My husband was in the finish area, like that to me, was so powerful because it was such a team achievement. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade that for having won four gold medals before, like not winning the gold medal in Sochi set that up to be just the ultimate moment. And it was just, I still get chills when I think about it.
Madeline [00:32:09] I'm getting chills listening to you. I mean, it's absolutely incredible. You know, on your fifth Olympics and your last race and a gold medal, what an incredible, incredible accomplishment for your team, for you and for the country and for the sport. So, let me ask, so after the Olympics and you must have just been absolutely riding high, just on everything, like, you know, you've reached the absolute peak, you’re in peak physical condition, the best shape of your life. And then I read that you got a, received the stage two breast cancer diagnosis. Can you tell us so, when you entered treatment, where did you draw strength and inspiration from?
Kikkan [00:32:55] So, when I first got the call that the biopsy had revealed that it was an aggressive breast cancer, I, I couldn't believe what I was hearing, because I really was in the shape of my life. I had so many other plans, like, no, this cannot be possible. I cannot go from this like literally invincible feeling athlete to oh my gosh, like, you know, what is my life going to be. But yet, as like it took me an hour, I think, to kind of process that. And of course, I reached out to my husband right away and I talked him, you know for me I'm like a big team person. So, I just I reached out right away. I started to talk through it. And it was amazing how quickly my athlete frame of mind took over. And, you know, right away I recognized, OK, this is, this is daunting. This is scary. But we don't necessarily know that this means the worst-case scenario. Like, I can get through this and I can live a long, full life. So, I'm going to focus on that because I don't know what's gonna happen, but I'm going to focus on, that's what I want to happen. And then, OK, what do I have to do to get there? OK, I've got this, I've got this treatment I got to do. All right. So, it's going to be a tough year. But OK, first I got to do chemo, then I got to do surgery, then I got to do radiation. So, I literally created the same roadmap as I had done when I sat down and planned out how I was going to get that medal. So, then all of sudden it wasn't like, oh my God, I got this year ahead of me. It was like, all right, I got this round of chemo. You know, it just, it gave me something to literally checkoff every day. And then I knew, I don't need to go through this alone. And, you know, I need a team, except this time, instead of being kind of the leader of the team, I'm going to be relying on my team to keep me going when my attitude dips or on the tough days, you know, and to be OK with that. Like, let people help, to be open with it. And I kind of knew that by being open with it, it would help give me a positive distraction. It would help me kind of really appreciate things through the process. And ultimately, maybe what I was learning could then help somebody else. And it's amazing how being able to focus on what you're doing, and, in the way, it can help others, helps you. It helps you process things. So, I knew that. And then I knew that this was going to challenge me more so than any injury or setback I'd ever had before. So, I needed to pull out my brightest colors, my best playlists, and I needed to find those just positive things to focus on every day. So, I had, I had bought these rainbow-colored running shoes. And so, I started wearing those to my doctor's appointments, so that no matter how intense it was sounding, I could literally look at my feet go, it's going to be OK. And then it was really working. So then, my husband came up with the idea of why don't we create some socks that are colorful and say, "it's going to be OK" and we put those out there to help other people going through stuff. So, I got excited about that project and we started doing that. And that was a way to raise money for a cause that was really important to me, Active Against Cancer, promoting physical activity through treatment. It was a way to, you know, give me something to focus on, a great distraction. And then as we started to get the socks out there, I started hearing stories about how a pair of socks was giving people the courage and the confidence to get through a tough day of chemotherapy or handling a tough thing at work or, you know, so planting those little pieces of positivity in places that just kind of constantly bounce you back when you're starting to go wayward. So, I had my plan. I had my team; I had my happy socks. And that just kind of helped me keep that mindset as I was going through and, you know, time felt incredibly slow and awful at times. But here I am now, almost two years later and I feel back to, my hair has grown back. I feel strong again. I have so much gratitude and appreciation for things I would have probably passed off before. So, it's amazing how, again, I could have, let it get me down, I could have slowed down, I've could have stopped doing all those things I love to do, but I just said no, I'm going to keep doing it now because I'm going to get to that future I want.
Madeline [00:37:03] I love it. And tell me, did you. We were able to remain active during treatment. Like, I know that had been such a big part of your life, you know? Right up until three weeks before. What were you able to do physically during treatment?
Kikkan [00:37:17] Well, ironically, I had gotten involved with this group Active Against Cancer, which was founded in Norway when I was competing over there. And I came on board and did some activations with them because I just loved the idea. I've always been a believer that physical activity is the basis, the foundation of anything you want to do in life, just for good physical and mental benefits. So, going into my treatment, I already had kind of a little bit of what I'd learned from Active about, you know, they were, there are actually in studies proving that physical activity enhances the effectiveness of treatment. So, I went, going in I knew staying active was going to be important for my treatment, both physically and mentally. I also know that yeah, that's what makes me happy. That's who I am. And so, kind of like what I did with being pregnant. I just approached it with curiosity. I didn't set hard, fast things of like; I have to run this fast or I have to be able to do this. But I said there's no reason I may not be able to do that. So, I just kind of let my body be the guide. I made a little rule that I, with myself that I would try to do at least 10 minutes of activity a day. And that proved to be really powerful on the days when I did feel really awful because I'd be lying on the couch like the chemo was just at its worst. And I would say, you said you're going to be out there for 10 minutes. And so, I would drag myself off the couch and I would get out there and maybe it was only a 10-minute walk around the block. But usually after 10 minutes, my body started to kind of move and I kind of went, well, at least I'm not on the couch sitting there thinking about how awful I feel. I'm outside, I'm maybe with friends, and ten minutes would turn into 20. And one-time it actually turned into a four-hour hike. And then, and then I would always feel better afterwards, like, you know, if it made me tired, I respected that I would sleep, right? But I didn't push it, but I, I was able to do intervals, strength training, I did a race partway through my fifth round, I think. And so, I just, I kept maintaining. So that when I did get through treatment and I finished and I started to get back into stuff again, it wasn't this like digging yourself out of this huge hole, like I've maintained so that I could kind of springboard off of that. So, it was, it was a double effect of helping me through treatment. But then also giving me this great thing to get back to when I got done.
Madeline [00:39:40] So speaking of when you got done, I know you went and you ran the New York City Marathon and a sub-three-hour time, which is absolutely incredible. Can you tell us, I'm curious, just was competitive skiing or marathon running more physically exerting?
Kikkan [00:39:58] They're both very challenging. They're both very different beasts. So, the New York City Marathon had been on my radar because the founder of Active Against Cancer, Gretta Awaits, is a nine-time winner. So, I thought it'd be really cool to run a marathon, you know, see if there's a crossover in fitness. See what it's like to run on the road that long. See what it's like to run with fifty-thousand people. So that was my plan. And it was gonna be November of 2018 right after I retired. Well, because of chemotherapy, I realized that probably wasn't the smartest thing to try to do. So, I said okay in a year from now I'm going to come back. And so, last April, I got in touch with my high school running coach. I said, hey, I've got this plan. And I had kind of picked three hours based off of my five K time thinking like, oh, how hard can that be? And then got to the training and realized that repeating that pace for twenty-six miles was actually very daunting. So, I started back in April and I kind of gradually built up and the training was really beating me up sometimes because my legs weren't ready to handle all the pavement running. But I gradually built up and I spoke on board cruise ships last summer and it always so happened to fall on my feet the day I'm supposed to do my long run. So, I did a couple of my like, two, two-and-a-half hour runs either on deck, on their little running track or on the treadmill. But I think because of the cancer experience, I was like, hey, I can run. Doesn't matter where, as long as I can go out and do it. So, I didn't, it wasn't that bad. People were like, how did you do that? But I was like, I don't know, I got to be out there running, felt good to do it. So, I built up. And then, about two weeks before the marathon, I ran a little half-marathon and that went pretty well. So, I was like, well, OK. I'm still nervous about doing it, but it's feeling like it might be possible. And then I got out there on race day and I ran with two of my close friends and teammates. And it was like the perfect day. And we, we paced it really well. We were controlled in the beginning. And then we ran the second half faster. And it just, it was so cool because every inch of that course besides the bridges are covered with people that are so enthusiastic. They're cheering you on. You're with all these runners, you know, you're putting yourself to the test. And it was so cool to cross that finish line and just know, like hey, after the year I've had, look what I've been able to do. And I got to do it with friends, and I got to do it on behalf of this really important cause. It was really incredible.
Madeline [00:42:21] So, you have such incredible fitness comebacks under your belt. I mean, between injuries, having a baby, beating cancer. Can you give our listeners your best training tips for fitness comeback's?
Kikkan [00:42:37] I think being very measured and strategic about your approach. So, in each of my comebacks, while mentally I was so motivated to come back, work harder than ever, that could have become a negative because I could have ramped up too fast and I could have ended up injuring myself again or discouraging myself because I tried to jump too far at once. So, kind of being patient with my coach and I developed this rule of three. We did this with some injuries. We did this with the pregnancy for sure. And then I kind of did this with cancer as well. You have to successfully complete a step three times before you move on to the next step. And you'll go out and you'll do it the first time. And you're starting with small steps at the beginning. So, you know, maybe it's just jogging for 10 minutes to see how that goes. And you do it once and you're like, cool, I've got that right. You're ready to move on to the next thing. But I would kind of slow myself down and go, okay I've got to do it again. And usually the second time ended up being a bit harder than the first time. But then the third time, once I did it, it was like, OK, I can clearly handle this. I'm ready for the next one. And I felt like that was so important. And it both physically helped me gradually build up, but it mentally also gave me that confidence that, like, OK, I know I've done this level now I can go to the next level. And so, I think that's really important. I think it's important to be generous or a little bit kind with yourself and say, yeah, this is going to take some time. So, start with some really achievable things at first, that maybe feel ridiculous, but do those because it's the, it's the consistency over time that builds up. And I find for me, three weeks is kind of a magic period of time. So, there's something about three. But if I can kind of get consistency in my program for about three weeks, I start to feel a change. By the end of three weeks, I'm like, OK, my body is absorbing this. I'm feeling stronger, now I can bump up a little bit. But for most of us, you get to the end of the first week and you get tired, you get discouraged. And that's where you have to kind of have that, like, commitment, like, okay, I've got to see it through the three weeks. And then at the end of three weeks, you can always evaluate go, OK, well, you know, maybe I don't feel like I'm handling it, so I'm just gonna stay here for a little while or yes, I am handling it. Go up, or whoa I think I need to back down. I got a little too ambitious. So, I think we can't underestimate the value of starting small and building up because time does actually go so quickly and then you set yourself up to be successful. And I'm a big believer of celebrating all the little victories along the way. I think we are so focused often on the prize; we forget to celebrate the little steps and the progress along the way.
Madeline [00:45:18] Do you have a way that you like to celebrate the little victories?
[00:45:21] Yes, there are these maple glazed donuts at my local grocery store in Alaska, I've had to, now that I live in Canada, I've had to find a new source of my rewards. But, yeah, I kind of like, you know, I like to set goals going into workouts. And, if I kind of meet my goal and a lot of my goals are based on, like, knowing I, I you know, I put it out there, I challenge myself and I got it. It doesn't always have to be a result, but if I know I give a good effort, I put it out there, it's part of my plan then yeah, I go and get a donut afterwards and that's my like, woo! You know, you put it out there and that's the reward. It's cool because I know I like, burn the calories to earn it. I think it tastes better after I've worked out, you know because it's just, the body's craving it. And that's my reward. And then the next time I get ready for a workout, I'm like, oh yeah. And you go out and do a good job, like, you get that donut and so you just kind of use those little things. And then the bigger ones, you know, it's fun. After the 2014 Olympics, even though I didn't get the medal, I was still, you know, celebrating the end of kind of the process and the period. So, I commissioned a hand-built sauna out of Alaskan wood. And Cooper, who made it for us, put the Olympic rings in glass blocks in the window. He made this really cool heart with half a maple leaf and half a star for kind of our Canadian/US. So, really put some nice touches on it. And now we get to enjoy that. And every time I go in there, I go, you know, Sochi. Yeah, I didn't win a medal, but hey, like, it was an amazing road. I'm proud of myself for what I did. And now I get this kind of representation to always remember that.
Madeline [00:46:56] I love it. That's a great gift to yourself, especially in these cold climates. I want to ask you a little bit about the future of competitive U.S. skiing. I know historically cross-country has been dominated by the Europeans and this has been changing on the World Cup stage. And, of course, with you and Jessie breaking the glass ceiling, the top of the podium, for the Americans. What can you, what do you think that the U.S. can do in terms of improving, continuing to improve the competitiveness with the Europeans?
Kikkan [00:47:27] Well, I have to say what I'm even more proud about than my gold medal is what we've been able to achieve as a country and as a program, and we've been able to really open the door of possibility, you know, on this podcast your talking all about confidence. That is exactly what we've been able to build in US cross-country skiing, you know, for me, I was operating off of this glimpse of hope of Bill Koch's silver medal in 1976 before I was born. But the fact that he had won a medal made me feel like, OK, it's possible. And then, you know, we gradually worked up. And then now that we've been able to demonstrate that we've won that gold medal, you can see that our young athletes now believe that it's possible. And they're, they're already racing better at the world junior level. I mean, we had our men's relay won the world junior relay for the second year in a row, like by a landslide. Gus Schumacher, who grew up in my hometown, he won the first ever men's individual medal at World Juniors. The women were second in the relay. I mean, it's amazing, just the power of belief. So, we've got that. Plus, we've now developed a system of we know how to train. We're getting the resources in line like we have a wax truck now. So, our waxing game is now, you know it'll never be where the Norwegians and Swedes are because they just, their budgets and their, it's a national sport. But we're getting close. We're getting ourselves in the arena. And so, you take the training, the experience, the resources and the belief. And now we have a system. And it's so cool to know that as I step back from the sport, the trajectory is continuing to go up. And not only that at the elite level, but since we won that gold medal, youth participation in cross-country skiing is up in all parts of the country. More people are getting out and enjoying the lifestyle of cross-country skiing. And to me, that is such a big win because, of course, I'm passionate. I love it. It's a lifelong sport. You know, it's something that everybody should do. And now because we won that gold medal. More people are getting out there. And I am so confident that our program can continue to produce athletes that are capable of winning medals, team medals, overall World Cups. You know, and what's so cool is Jessie is kind of leading the squad right now, but she's got this wing of younger athletes coming up. And you still have Sophie Caldwell in there. So, these young athletes get to come in at a time where they still get to race side by side with their heroes and their mentors, and then they're going to lead the next group. And the men's program is coming on board. And selfishly, I get to sit back and watch now, and I'm pretty psyched about it.
Madeline [00:50:12] Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, how, you know, Jessie admired you growing up and now she's kind of taken the reins. It's amazing that you've got the system in place for future success for the team as well. [Music transition]
Madeline [00:50:35] I know you're really involved in the community right now, and I just want to have you just briefly tell us what is Fast and Female? What's the organization and what's the mission?
Kikkan [00:50:45] So Fast and Female is all about keeping girls involved in sports. Because we know that if girls stay involved in sports at any level, whether it's just participation or competitively, you benefit so much in your life. You build confidence, you feel empowered, you're healthy. And we ultimately want girls to become women who become leaders in sport. So, we're trying to slow the amount of girls that leave sport, you know, keeping them engaged and giving them tools and resources and helping them network so that they stay in sports for life and that the girls who are our participants now become the leaders tomorrow. And I got involved with the program back in 2008. One of my friends in the World Cup, Chandra Crawford from Canada. We were archrivals on the course, but we had this common love of keeping girls in sports. And we've been working together on Fast and Female ever since. And I've gotten all my teammates involved. And it's been a really fun way to stay connected with the passion for sport and to see sometimes these girls, like, literally change in the course of a couple of hours and start to see and experience the power of sport. [Music transition]
Madeline [00:51:57] Do you looking back on your career, going. I mean, you have just such incredible breadth and depth and a gold medal of success, you know, in your sports, the marathon, becoming a mother, beating cancer, all of these incredible experiences. Do you have one piece of advice for our listeners about how to develop self-confidence in their own lives?
Kikkan [00:52:23] Definitely. And I will tell you that while I have this amazing resumé, it has not been a perfect road. There have been a lot of points along the way where I have doubted myself. I have been very close to backing down. There are times when it's taken, you know, my team around me to help me get the right mindset and to keep moving forward. So, I've learned more in the very human moments, I think, than I have in the goals going exactly as I want and winning that medal. So, if I look back over kind of all these different chapters in my story, there are some very consistent. I would say, kind of tool kit that has helped me get through these challenging times and thrive more than I ever thought was possible. And it comes down to the perspective. So, kind of that plan, that roadmap, you know, literally taking like, you know, here we are in Covid and there is so much uncertainty. And so, we have to be a bit, you know, building that road map is a bit challenging right now because we don't know what we're going to be able to do. But you can still sit down, and you can go, OK, so if it's you know, if it's three months or if it's a year before I can do this, but this is what I want to do. This is what I want to get to. What steps can I be taking today? Right now. That are going to set me up so that when things open up again and get back to normal, I'm ready to go. And maybe this is the chance to stop and think and go, was I on the trajectory I wanted to be on? Or do I want more? Or do I want different? And so, taking the time to slow down, think about that roadmap. You could do it yourself or I recommend go out and find people that are, that know you really well, are experts, to help you build that roadmap, create some things you can do every single day. Then, if you find some like-minded people, you know, here we are cooped up with our families or, you know, these smaller groups, like harness the power of that, you know, put some energy into other people because again, when things are tough for me, I felt like that was a really good, maybe distraction. It feels weird to call it a distraction, but it helped me from focusing on what wasn't going well for me, focusing on someone, helping someone else. And then ultimately, we all grew because of it. So, it's a great time right now to kind of build that team around you and to appreciate those people in your life and to work together towards some of the goals. And then, in these moments when things feel like the world is crushing in on you, and you just, you can't seem to find that positivity, find those colorful socks. Put on that playlist. Cute pictures on Pinterest also work fabulous. You know, for me, I'm lucky I have this happy go lucky four-year old that, you know, while he drives me crazy sometimes, for the most part, I can usually stop and I can look at him and I can go no matter what, life is good, you know, it's going to be OK. And so I think if you can, if you can harness these three things, that roadmap, that team, and then just kind of deciding to be positive and resilient, we can we can get through anything and we can get a future that's even better than what we, that we think sometimes. So, that's the best thing I can pass along. And, you know, I continue to come up against challenges. I mean, this cancer thing, you know, I've made it through treatments. My scans have been all clear, but it's never something I can just kick in the rearview mirror now, like if it come rearing back. But I'm choosing not to think about that. I'm choosing to think of things have gone well. There's a lot of reason to believe things will be fine. And I'm going to, I'm gonna make sure I enjoy every day so that, you know, whatever comes up in the future, I'm ready to take it on.
Becca [00:56:11] To learn more about Kikkan and Fast and Female, visit her website, kikkan.com or fastandfemale.com. Kikkan's, "It's going to be OK" rainbow socks are available for purchase on her website. If you enjoyed listening to our podcast hit, subscribe now and leave us a review. Thank you to Nico Vettese for composing our original music. And thank you always to our home team of friends and family for supporting us in our mission. This episode was produced and edited by Madeline and Becca. Thanks for tuning in. And remember, you are somebody.