Our guest today is Dr. Jamie Coleman, a Denver based trauma and acute care surgeon, professor of medicine, and a medical media expert. Jamie will bring us into her trauma bay to discuss how she handles unpredictability, how she makes decisions under pressure, and the importance of authenticity in leadership. Jamie will tell us the importance of defining what success looks like in your career and why she recommends drafting your own mission statement. Jamie will also explain why confidence isn’t always knowing what to do, but rather, knowing what you’re doing.
You will learn about...
(04:38) How Jamie decided specifically on trauma surgery
(07:15) How Jamie cultivated self-confidence as she was just starting her medical practice
(15:37) What a typical day looks like for Jamie
(20:14) Jamie's mindset in surgery
(25:21) Strategies Jamie uses to handle unpredictability
(33:46) Advice on leadership
(41:27) How Jamie emotionally processes delivering difficult news to a patient's family
(54:01) Tips on having a high demanding career and being a mother
(01:08) Jamie's best piece of advice for developing professional self-confidence
To connect with Dr. Jamie Coleman click HERE
For show notes click HERE
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On The Madeline & Becca Podcast, we chat with leading women from a variety of industries about their career journeys and how they developed professional self-confidence.
Produced by Madeline and Becca
Episode #35: Navigating unpredictability with trauma surgeon, Dr. Jamie Coleman
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:00:00] As a young surgeon, we talk about confidence. Confidence is not always knowing what to do, but it does mean that you know what you're doing. If that makes any sense, in that I know what I'm doing. Part of what I may be doing may be calling a partner to ask for their opinion or advice. It might be to ask a question. And I think that's what confidence is, it's not always knowing the answer, but knowing that you will find the answer and you have the confidence to do it.
Madeline & Becca [00:00:42] Welcome to The Madeline and Becca Podcast. The mission of our podcast is simple, to inspire professional self-confidence in women everywhere. I'm Madeline. And I'm Becca. On our podcast, you will hear stories from real world influencers, women who have experienced tremendous success in their careers by building self-confidence. Thanks for joining us.
Becca [00:01:17] Our guest today is Dr. Jamie Coleman, a Denver based trauma and acute care surgeon, professor of medicine, and a medical media expert. She earned her M.D. at the University of Tennessee College of Medicine in Memphis and completed her residency in Chicago at the Cook County Hospital and Rush University Integrated General Surgery Program. Jamie is the mother of two energetic young boys and wife to a former NFL player turned lawyer. Jamie will bring us into her trauma bay to discuss how she handles unpredictability, how she makes decisions under pressure and the importance of authenticity in leadership. Jamie will tell us the importance of defining what success looks like in your career and why she recommends drafting your own mission statement. Jamie will also explain why confidence isn't always knowing what to do, but rather knowing what you're doing. Here's Madeline.
Madeline [00:02:22] We're excited to welcome here, it's Dr. Jamie Coleman with us. She's a trauma and acute care surgeon and also a professor of medicine and a medical media expert. So welcome and thank you for being here with us today.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:02:35] Thank you so much for having me. I'm really, I've been looking forward to this. We're going to have fun.
Madeline [00:02:39] So, let's start, for our listeners who don't know about you, about your background in terms of becoming a doctor and you're interest in both science and medicine.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:02:50] It's interesting, I, I actually come from an engineering family. My family's pretty much all engineers, but there's definitely a science twist to that. And I was always just drawn to science in school. But again, I'm kind of one of those weird people where science and the arts, so literature, history, my undergraduate degree is actually in history. So, I'm very proud owner of the Bachelor of the Arts degree, and that being said, I do, I like to always reference and credit my grandmother when I get asked about this, because she not only went to college, but was a microbiologist and her report had wanted to be a physician but was told that that's not what ladies did and in the nineteen-forties, it wasn't what ladies did. But I do always have sort of this a little seed of pride that I'm helping give something back to her that she never had. She's no longer with us, but even still. But again, I always loved science, always loved figuring out how things work. Maybe it's some of that engineering in there. And at the same time, I love stories. I love history, I love reading. And so, medicine to me is really that marriage of people and their stories and their lives and applying some science to improve that life.
Madeline [00:04:32] So how did you decide specifically on trauma surgery?
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:04:38] It's interesting, I actually read a book when I was in high school and it was entitled The Making of a Woman Surgeon. And I was just captivated by surgery. At least what I thought surgery was, let me put it that way, and I decided I wanted to go to medical school in high school. That was the goal. And interestingly, I went to medical school to be a surgeon, which is fairly ignorant since I didn't really know what that meant other than at the time, I'm aging myself. But the show E.R. seemed pretty cool to me, mostly the surgeon, Dr. Benton, that was in that show.
Madeline [00:05:27] I remember.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:05:28] Yes. And then I think it definitely did, medical school definitely helped solidify that in I loved anatomy. I loved the physicality of actually being able to help someone not just with adjusting the medication, but to physically be able to use your hand and help somebody and the decisive nature of it helped definitely solidify me toward surgery, and then where I went to medical school, I went to medical school at the University of Tennessee, which is in Memphis, home of one of the busiest trauma centers in the country. And I just remember being a fourth year medical student and seeing these patients come in at the most vulnerable moment. Where they didn't wake up that morning and choose to have surgery. They didn't wake up that morning and have time to research their surgeon or come to grips with a diagnosis, join a support group. They woke up their morning just like the three of us woke up and spent our morning. You put your shoes on and you have plans for the day and those plans get interrupted. And I just was struck by the need of those patients. And so, yeah, I basically I fell in love with trauma as a medical student. I then did my surgery residency at Rush University with Cook County Hospital, which many people know is a, one of the busiest, again, trauma centers in the country and just continue to fall in love with it.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:07:15] So, as a young surgeon in your early career, how did you cultivate self-confidence? Obviously now you've got quite a few years under your belt and a lot of experience. But in those early years, what helped you to have self-confidence as you were just starting in your medical practice?
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:07:32] Well, first, I have to definitely credit my mentors and specifically my female mentors, I was extraordinarily lucky, and I didn't realize that at the time that between medical school residency and then my fellowship, which I did at Grady Memorial in Atlanta. I've never been anywhere with fewer than two female trauma surgeons.
Madeline [00:07:58] Wow.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:07:58] In medical school, I think there were three. In residency, I had four. And as a fellow, I had two. And so, I think there is so much to be said for when you see it, you know you can do it. Some were mothers, some were not, some were married, some were divorced, you know there was that, it was great because I had such a wide range of women. And how they were living their lives, that I never had that question of can I be a mom, can I be married, can I do this and be a trauma surgeon? For me, my focus during medical school and residency was just ensuring that I was choosing a career that I loved. And I realize I am so fortunate by that. That I could see it and I knew it could be done, and then I think especially for women as we enter our careers as a young surgeon, we talk about confidence, confidence is not always knowing what to do. But it does mean that you know what you're doing. If that makes any sense in that I know what I'm doing. Part of what I may be doing may be calling a partner to ask for their opinion or advice. It might be to ask a question. And I think that's what confidence is. It's not always knowing the answer but knowing that you will find the answer and you have the confidence to do it. And I think. Being raised, quote on quote around a fair number of women, seeing them do it, I knew I could figure it out. Whether it was the home life, whether it was the operating room, whether it was anything I'd seen women who looked like me in a general sense do it.
Madeline [00:10:06] It's incredibly powerful to have those examples because then you can picture yourself following in their footsteps and we've heard that from several guests before, that what you see, you believe you can be.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:10:18] Absolutely. I mean, I, It is funny. I mean, I talk about this in all kinds of levels when we talk about representation and diversity in medicine and why it's so important and we as humans figure that out at such a young age, I mean, I joke all the time. But it's true. I'm obsessed with Wonder Woman. Why am I obsessed with Wonder Woman? Because Lynda Carter had dark hair and blue eyes in the late 1970s, early 1980s, when the world was blond Barbie. And as a dark headed, blue, green eyed little girl I identified with that, and that's the thing, right? It's an innate sense. It's innate desire of humans to be part of a community. And part of that community is to be with people who aren't necessarily identical to you, but who you can see a bit of yourself in. And again, I go back to diversity in medicine is not only important so that we can show it, but I mean, it leads to better patient outcomes as well, so it's important on a multiple, on multiple levels.
Madeline [00:11:38] Absolutely. So, let's talk a little bit about trauma surgery, because I don't think all of our listeners know what is a trauma surgeon, what does that practice actually consist of?
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:11:48] You know, it's funny, I, I'm not going to lie when you're sitting on an airplane or you're sitting somewhere and people want to start a conversation with you, like what do you do? And I'm like, I work in a hospital. I try to, it doesn't really ever work. So, I don't know why I continue to try that. But yes, I think that there is a huge, I think my job in particular is a really big black box for people. I think number one surgery is. People haven't seen surgery. They don't really know what it is other than what gets represented on TV, which I will say decidedly is not really how it is. I need to say that, but I think trauma surgery in particular, people don't really understand it, so the question I typically get is, oh, you work in the E.R? And so first of all, trauma is a surgical specialty. What does that mean? That means that trauma is a specialty of surgery, just like a colorectal surgeon or a transplant surgeon or like a bariatric weight loss surgeon. So, it's a specialty of surgery that's very different from my emergency medicine colleagues who per the name emergency medicine. They're medical doctors. So, their training is on the vast majority of their residencies. So, that's after medical school. So, I did four years of college, four years of medical school, then you do a residency in your specialty. Medical specialties on average are three years, then you can do a fellowship like cardiologist, heart specialist, kidney specialist, etc. That's called a fellowship. So, medical residencies in general are three years. Surgery residencies are the longest. We're at five years with the most number of hours. And that's because you're trying to learn the medicine behind things as well as the physical skill to throw that stitch, to make that incision, to be able to fix whatever it is that you need to fix. So, trauma surgeons are surgeons, we operate, so I don't really necessarily work in the E.R. Primarily, I actually work everywhere, so my job is I take care of a patient who's been injured from the time they've been injured, and they come into the emergency room through their operation that I perform. Again, trauma surgeons in general are double boarded and critical care, so an ICU medicine, so then I'm able to take care of that patient when they're in the ICU through to the time that they're in a regular room or a floor bed to discharge and then even after discharge I still see them in clinic. So, we're we are a unique breed in that. We see patients from the beginning through to the end and we're able to take care of them and all of those aspects, and so that's what being a trauma surgeon is. I operate on injured patients. I, my lazy way of saying it is I operate on everything but bone and brain. That being said, we sometimes now do operate on ribs, but so, you know injury by any sort of mechanism. Gunshot wound, stab wound, car collision, motorcycle, ATV, arrow wounds. You name it, if it involves an injury, we take care of it.
Madeline [00:15:37] So, tell us then, what does a typical day look like?
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:15:42] I enjoy getting this question and this question is always the hardest thing for me to answer, because trauma surgery is perfect for people who are A.D.D. and who never want to actually know what a typical day looks like or what they're doing on a given day. I don't know, I guess the best way to walk through it is I work at a level one center, so different levels of trauma centers, level ones are the centers that can take care of it all. We're the busiest we have the highest volume. We have the neurosurgeons, the brain surgeons, we have the bone surgeons as well. So, we can take care of anything and everything. And in general, again, for level one hospitals, what makes us different is when I take a call, I'm taking it in-house, which means in the hospital, because when a patient's been injured, I need to be able to be at their bedside, my hands on them within 10 to 15 minutes of them hitting the doors. So, what goes into that is spending the night and doing long hours at a stretch. Every hospital is different in terms of how they do it. But in general, most trauma centers, there are trauma surgeons. We will take call in the hospital anywhere from twenty-four up to thirty-six plus hours in a row. So, for instance, my last call, I get up, come to work between six and seven a.m. We have a morning report, or we talk about all the patients that came in the past twenty-four hours. What surgeries did they get? What surgeries do they need? What injuries do they have, etc. just to make sure we're having good continuity of care and my pager's on and then we also see the patients that are already here in the hospital, so it's not just a matter of oh, we're waiting for someone to come in. I think that is one misconception. Other than people thinking I'm an E.R. doctor is that I'm just like chillin, waiting for somebody to come in. I wish that were the case, but no. So, we see our patients that are in the hospital, the ones that are on the floor, the ones that are in the intensive care unit. We’re doing surgeries on patients that are you know, again, a lot of times with trauma, you do one surgery, but it doesn't mean that you're done. So, we finish surgeries. We are also doing surgeries for general surgery patients as well. So, patients that have emergencies that aren't just injury related. We're seeing consults, new patients that come in with emergencies as well as other general surgery issues. So, it's a bit of a hodgepodge, never know what you are going to get, Forrest Gump, box of chocolate.
Madeline [00:18:35] So, in terms of preparing for these long shifts, do you have sort of a routine that you go through before you actually come into the hospital?
[00:18:42] I wish I could say I did. I wish I could say I was one of those people. I mean, I will say that I live my life a little bit differently because I do work such long hours and that I rarely, rarely ever drink alcohol. Surprisingly, I don't really drink caffeine either, weird, but it's, I do prioritize my sleep. I go to bed early, I, pre-pandemic, I would wake up early, go to the gym on my way into work to get a workout in before. Obviously now with a pandemic that's altered. But other than that, I think just it's being a trauma surgeon is definitely a marathon, not a sprint. Because it's working these long hours, not just while you're in your 20s, but it's for a career. And so, yes, I'm in bed before nine p.m. sometimes and maybe slightly even before eight p.m., depending upon the situation. And I try not to, again, like drinking alcohol within two or three hours of bedtime impacts your sleep, impacts your quality of sleep. Same thing with caffeine. So, I try to live my life in such a way that I try and stay as rested as possible.
Madeline [00:20:14] So, one of the questions that we know our guests are going to be really curious about and Becca and I are too, is your mindset in surgery. And actually, when you're in there, you know, when you've got the gunshot patient coming in or the stab patient, you know, coming in, what is your mindset and how do you handle what is life and death decisions day to day?
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:20:41] I think overall, I, in terms of mindset, I think some of it for me is approach, which is my entire goal is to very quickly figure out who needs surgery, who's dying. What surgery do they need? And how quickly can I get him up to the operating room and when we talk about this, we're talking about this gets decided oftentimes in under 10 minutes. In patients who have been traumatically injured, if you spend longer than 10 minutes in the emergency department, which is a place of triage, really, it's not a place of treatment for trauma patients. Your mortality starts to go up. So, I like to say I love jigsaw puzzles because I do, and it's literally the ultimate jigsaw puzzle with a time clock ticking with pieces that you can't necessarily see the colors of in the sense of you have zero or very limited information, you're trying to get as much information as quickly as possible in an organized manner. And I think really the skill set for that is maintaining calm, maintaining focus. So that you can be efficient. Efficient is fast. It's not necessarily about just being fast; it's about knowing what you need to figure out. How to get that done as quickly as possible and then quickly making a decision on it. So, I think the biggest thing for me is, I you know tell my residents, I tell them you know your job is ice water of everybody in the room. We're not going to have lots of words, but every word is going to matter. We're going to have direct calm communication and we're going to get it figured out, we're going to get it taken care of. I think some of that now that I say it, I think some of it definitely plays into in those types of situations, it goes back to you don't always know what to do, but you have to know what you're doing. And I think being able to portray that puts people at ease. When it's like, OK, we'll figure it out. I mean, that's literally what my job is. Well, there's a hole somewhere. We'll fix it, you know, we'll find it. And I think portraying that internally and externally is what gives you a mindset or a framework for not just when a patient comes in that's been shot, but when you feel overwhelmed, when you know you haven't gone to the grocery store or your gas tank is on empty, you forgot your kid's supposed to dress up like it's nineteen-eighties day at school or hypothetically their parent teacher conference, which I've done before. You know, you start to feel overwhelmed. I think it's being able to take that breath and say, OK, we'll figure it out. I'm not exactly sure how it's going to look. Not exactly sure how it's going to go. But I know that it is going to go. And I know that we are going to address it and fix it. And whether the fixing means success in terms of a patient living, whether the fixing means that I'm going to home, bake some cookies for that bake sale, or just go to Kroger and throw it in a Tupperware and try and pretend like I can bake like that. You know, I think it's trying to take the focus, I think we focus so much on how things are supposed to go. Rather than what the end result really should be, which is taking care of patients, having my children feel loved. And having yourself feel loved.
Madeline [00:25:21] These are very, very good points and you're speaking to what was my next question for you know there's so many professional women who listen to our podcast. You know, they aren't trauma surgeons. But, you know, they've experienced a lot of unpredictability this last year. And that's something that you're very versed in dealing with day to day. The unpredictability, the all right so like you said, how do we deal with this? How do we make these decisions? How do we just make rational decisions and figure out, take care of the patient, take care of the child, take care of yourself back to some of those sort of basics. And I was wondering, just for our listeners who have dealt with the unpredictability of what your advice would be in terms of for those of us who, you know, some of us live predictable lives day to day, we don't deal with what you deal with, what you would advise in terms of learning to accept that and have a like a skill set to cope with it?
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:26:21] Well, I think one thing that I did early in my career, which I have found extremely helpful. Because you're right, I do feel like I was as well prepared for 2020 as you almost could be. When you just feel like you're in a boat. The next wave comes, and the next wave comes and you just, great kids aren't in school. You know you can't do this. Can't do that. Your usual coping mechanisms, usual sources of enjoyment are gone. So, one of the first things I did early in my career was I wrote a mission statement. And I advocate this for so many reasons, and when I say mission statement, I mean, it's like a one or two sentence thing that really focuses my goal for and for me personally, I have it in kind of three categories, like as a wife, what's my goal. What's my goal as mom? What's my goal as a surgeon? And it just helps because, for instance. You know, my goals for my children are to have them feel loved, to help them grow into happy and healthy, confident young men who are poised to give back to their society and to also love themselves. So, it doesn't say on there that I'm going to be at every soccer practice, does it say on there that they are going to be in soccer this year. It doesn't, it's descriptive without being prescriptive. And same way as a trauma surgeon, my goal is to impact the care of the trauma patient, even outside of my own operating room. So, that means that could be research, that could be in scientific writing, that could be layperson writing with trying to talk about injury prevention skills, injury prevention mechanisms. So again, for me, that's the life raft. It's not about never being in a storm. It's about what are you going to do when you're in the storm? And for me, that's what helps me instead of just trying to keep my head above water, whether it's crashing waves, you start to feel overwhelmed. You're starting to feel like you're failing at everything. Nothing seems to be going right. It's a tangible, it's physical, you can print it out, you can put it in your purse, your wallet. And it's something to help ground you that's physical and say, OK. I did have a patient die. Doesn't mean I'm not fulfilling my goals for myself. Yes, my children are at home. Being remotely taught, which is a loose phrase for what has happened in the past year. And it's a way to feel, hey, OK, you know what I'm not feeling as a parent. No, it doesn't look how I want it to look, it's not the prescription I would have written for my day or for my year, for my life at this point. But descriptively, I'm still checking the boxes, so I think particularly for people who aren't used to a lot of change I think that can be helpful. But I also think even for people who aren't necessarily used to a lot of change, I think as women we put so much pressure on ourselves. That it's a way to just step back and really define success for ourselves not from Instagram, not from Twitter, from Facebook, which is an ever evolving definition of success, it's taking that power away. And saying no what is being successful as a mom mean to me? And then I think personally, that helps with a lot of mom guilt. I mean, your audience is yes, they don't necessarily spend one hundred hours a week in the hospital. But that goes back to my point is I have girlfriends who work part time and struggle. Particularly if they have children. In terms of always feeling like they're failing, and that's because it's an ever moving target when you're looking outside yourself.
Madeline [00:31:36] So would you suggest, and I think it's really, really good advice that that our listeners perhaps take a step back to write a mission statement for each particular lane of their lives and print it out and put it somewhere where they look every day?
Jamie [00:31:50] Absolutely. I know where mine is. It's on my computer. It's on my phone. I don't have a printed out copy, but like I said, I know exactly where to find it and. You know, it's funny, you never, you're never going to feel successful until you've defined success. If you haven't defined it, you're always going to feel like you're failing because you don't know what success is. And success doesn't mean to everybody, the same thing. And when you step back and really try to distill it and distill your life into what do I want to have accomplished when I'm done here? I think it just helps orient you, it helps you like I said, it helps you start swimming instead of just trying to keep your head above water. It helps you to start being purposeful again in your direction, it doesn't mean you have a bad day, but it helps put that bad day into context. This is a bad day. I'm not failing as a mom. I'm not failing as a surgeon. I'm not failing as a wife. I'm just having a bad day, and I think that context is important.
Madeline [00:33:13] And I couldn't agree with you more, you have to understand what success is for you, what the goal is, and then you anchor yourself to that in whatever storms come along, because they inevitably will be storms, as we're all living through right now.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:33:26] Absolutely. And I think it again, when you step away from the specifics about how something should look, that automatically gives you a flexibility so that your day doesn't have to look a certain way for it to be a good day.
Madeline [00:33:46] And I want to circle back just to one of the things that we talked about in terms of leadership. Obviously, you are the leader, you are the trauma surgeon, you are the decision maker. And you set the tone for everything that happens when emotions are high, or a patient is dying or there's something very difficult. Can you speak a little bit to how you lead?
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:34:05] Well, I think it's definitely been an evolution. I think it's, again, realizing that how I lead looks different from other people, part of that honestly is because I look different from other people, how my male colleagues lead and how I lead looks very different. I think when I try specifically to teach and talk to my female residents about this, it's encouraging them to look around them and see what they like, what they don't like, what they see they think works well, what they see they think doesn't, but also learning how to internalize that. And how does that feel to you? Because the bottom line is people, in my opinion, respond to authenticity. So, for me to walk in and lead in a way that my six-foot male partner leads, I'm five-foot-two on a good day, on a really good day, it's not going to feel authentic if I don't think it's authentic. So, some of it is, again, I think, separating out how it looks with saying, OK, how are people responding to me? That's the whole EQ bit, right? How are people responding to me? How can I get this team to be efficient and effective? You don't always get to pick your team, but you got to get your team across the finish line. And so, I think leadership is such a personal or leadership style, I should say, such a personal choice, because it has to be something that you're comfortable doing. Otherwise, it's going to come across as like I said, not only inauthentic, but then potentially overbearing, because if I'm not comfortable with it, people are going to sense that I'm not comfortable and then they're going to interpret that discomfort in a variety of ways. Whether it's domineering, too quiet, too loud, too aggressive, not aggressive enough, etc. So, I think my biggest piece of advice for leadership is you got to be comfortable in your own skin. Because then people realize that you're trying your best in your way to do what's the best for the patient. And, in addition to that, yes, I mean, I think staying calm goes back to again, understanding all right, we'll fix it, don't know exactly what it is. But we'll try to fix it. Whether we're 100 percent successful or not, obviously that's our goal. We're surgeons, we're egotistical. I like to think in a good way, but, you know, it's true, we think we can fix everybody and fix everything. But I think relying on your training, relying on your own interpersonal strength that you can do it will automatically convey to your team that it's going to be OK. So, it's hard for me to say exactly, oh, you should do this or do that, I think part of it is definitely EQ is a skill and I continue to work on it, I think all of us continue to, I think that's a lifelong learning process. And also looking around you to see how things are working, how things aren't. Leadership books I think are great to kind of psychology. People want to feel like they're part of the team. People want to feel like they're helping. People want to feel valued, so remembering that along the way, I think is also really, really important.
Madeline [00:38:36] Yeah, it's great advice and we've heard it from several of our guests, and I know when I first started practicing law in courtrooms, I am also short.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:38:44] Yes.
Madeline [00:38:44] High heels help. But I didn't look like anybody else in the room. And oftentimes I was the only woman and young. And so, I had the same sort of growth into myself about being authentic because people believe you when you believe in yourself and your authentic to yourself and that it's obviously going to be different for each person.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:39:06] Absolutely. And I think, again, like you said, you got to kind of figure it out. You know, you kind of have to do it wrong a little bit. Do it right a little bit, see the difference in the outcomes based on what you did, what you said, how you said it. And, yeah, I mean, I joke all the time. I get away with a fair amount because I am little. So, you know, I can carry a bit of a bigger personality without hopefully anyways I think, without crossing into intimidation factor. Whereas, for instance, my husband so my husband is six-foot-six, he some people may know, but he played professional football, he played in the NFL. He's a big dude. For him, he knows that there are times, he knows him raising his voice versus me raising mine are two completely different things. And so, I think you're right, I think especially as women, realizing a bit of where you are in what kind of career can help develop some of those skills, because I do think people don't like to be intimidated. The best communication happens when people are comfortable. Most efficient communication happens when people are comfortable. That's why I'm not a yeller, you start yelling, people get uncomfortable. People start, their minds then don't stay focused on the task. They're also focused on their hurt feelings or being nervous or being scared, etc. And so, I think having people be comfortable with you even in a leadership role, doesn't have to be as a friend, but comfortable to focus on what you need them to focus on and not focus on drama or interpersonal issues or being scared or being nervous is definitely a big part of that.
Madeline [00:41:21] I couldn't agree more AND self-awareness of those of yourself, too.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:41:27] Right.
Madeline [00:41:27] You said earlier in our conversation, I want to shift gears a little bit. You said that you love stories and people. And I think everybody, all of our listeners are curious about maybe some stories from your career. So, let's start with maybe a particularly challenging moment that you faced, whether it was losing a patient or delivering bad news or something that might be really memorable to you that you've learned from and how you handled that.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:42:01] This is a tough one because I think, well, for me, it's kind of two separate things. I think for me, one of the biggest things that I've learned from is how to emotionally process what I see and what I do. And by that, it's not the hole in the liver, right, it's that sticks with you. I mean, sometimes, but. It's the stories and the people behind that. And delivering bad news is one of the hardest things. And probably one of the most emotionally and mentally heavy things that I do. And I've written about it before, but because people you know, it's funny, like I said, you're on the plane and people are like oh, you work in a hospital, what does that mean? You know, and then people think you're an E.R. doctor. And then we talk about that. And then people are always like, oh, what's the coolest thing you've ever seen. And it, you know or what's the hardest part of your job or whatever? And I always kind of you know oh, well, you know, it's. multitasking. It's a lot of hours, but really the hardest part of my job is delivering bad news, and for me, I can nail it down to a moment in that for me, it's these two parallel stories that are happening. It's a patient who's been in a car collision, right? My story starts when either I get a page a couple of minutes before they come or just when they show up. And I'm again, right, trying to trias very quickly, do we need to go the operating room? Where am I going to be operating? Do I need to be in their chest? Do I need to be in their belly? And we're doing all the things right. We're putting the monitors on, we're drawing blood, we're putting tubes in, we're going up to the operating room where prepping and draping you know or cleaning the body, we're making everything sterile so we can start. The anesthesiologist is there putting the breathing tube in, you know all this orchestra's happening. And behind the scenes, their family members who got a phone call. Got a knock on the door. Who are, who don't know anything. And they drive to the hospital, they get driven to the hospital, they wait in a room knowing very little, just based off what they can glean typically from our law enforcement colleagues, from the police. Sometimes from fire as well, some are pre-hospital providers. But they don't know anything. And while I'm focused on stopping the bleeding, figuring out where the problem is, putting the stitches where I need to put the stitch. Put the clamps where I need to put the clamps, get the exposure that I need to fix the problem. They're in this mental state, and it's one that is full of hope, it's full of, "I just saw them, this can't be that bad. It can't be that bad. It's going to be fine." You know, it's the self-talk of fear and hope and intense insecurity. And when a patient is too far injured, when I couldn't get to them in time, when those injuries are fatal, and I have a patient on the operating room table, and they've died. And you take those moments with your operating room team. And I go the locker room, I look myself over for blood. Make sure I've washed off blood spatters, as much as you know we're covered in everything, I change my scrubs if I have patients’ blood on me. And I walked to that waiting room. And it's the moment actually not even walking up to the waiting room, because it's such a heavy knowledge burden to know that the words I'm about to give to them are going to completely shatter and change their world. But it's that moment when you walk in the waiting room and they look at you. And they're so glad you're there. Their eyes are filled with hope. And it's that brief moment where you see that hope and you see all the birthdays that they're never going to have or the graduation or the grandchildren or the children. You can feel it. And knowing, it's hard for me to talk about, but knowing that I'm taking that all away. And no, I didn't do it. But it's such an intimate thing to watch someone's world dissolve around them. And those are the moments that stick with you, it's a very famous quotation by a surgeon that in the abbreviated abridged version of that is that "every surgeon has a graveyard or a cemetery upon which you go back and pray and visit. “It’s absolutely true. But part of it for me, isn't just the patient, but it's the death of those hopes. And the death of those plans and wishes that you see from the family that is in with that patient.
Madeline [00:49:01] And as heavy and challenging as that is, on the flip side of things, you also routinely get to save lives and the quality of people's lives. And boy, those are such the opposite dichotomies.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:49:19] It is.
Madeline [00:49:19] I mean, you don't get two more polar opposite situations. Do you have a particular story or a moment that you can share with us where you realize all of your training, all of your experience in your work, just changed someone's world for the better in such a profound way that they are going to be able to go on and have all of those experiences because of you?
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:49:45] Absolutely, I mean, I think you're right, it is it's such a stark. dichotomy, such a stark contrast. That, yes gosh, I'm trying to think of like a story, but I mean, I think in general I think there's two levels of it, so there's the patients that woke up that morning, put their shoes on, got in the car and purely bad luck happened to them that day, and you're able to return them back to their life, where they're back to putting on their shoes and their socks and getting in the car. And I think also in my line of work, some of the really satisfying, really gosh like, positive moments are when you're dealing with younger individuals who made some bad choices. Like we all have to a certain extent, but I was fortunate none of my bad choices ended up with me in a trauma bay. Or needing surgery emergently. But when you see those young lives come back to you. And say it was more than the surgery that helped heal them. Because the surgery and the experience of almost losing their life has helped direct their future life. And I think those are the moments and the cards that you read that say and one in particular, he's just so sweet, he was like, I promise you, your work was not in vain. And it just so cute, just so earnest, and I think he really, it grounded him. And I think I've seen that, thankfully, more than once over the career, and I think that so it's a second level you know of getting someone back to their life but getting someone back to their life with a new passion, a new direction, where they'll start volunteering with other patients who have been shot or victims of domestic violence. Kids who decide to get back to school. Make some changes in their life so it's an impact beyond just that day, beyond just that operating room, and I think it's a privilege to witness it.
Madeline [00:53:05] Yeah, it must be incredibly powerful not only to have just saved their lives, but also the direction of their lives.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:53:11] I wish I could take credit for that, but I think is cool to see them take the opportunity to change the direction of their lives and to give them that opportunity to make that change is so cool. It's so, so cool.
Madeline [00:53:34] Let's shift gears just a little bit, we talked about you being a mother of two young boys and also being a trauma surgeon, and I know there's just a lot of talk in professional networking circles about how to, people always throw around the word balance. But it's like, you know, you are a mother when you're in the operating room and when you're at home, you're also with your boys and your mother you're still a surgeon.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:54:01] Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Madeline [00:54:01] So, I'm just curious from someone who has such a high profile and a high stress job and also, you're the mom of two young boys and I know you spoke to a little bit earlier in our conversation. But for women who are thinking about pursuing these demanding careers and also want to be mothers, do you have any additional advice? Sometimes I think people act like it's a zero sum game. You can have one or the other. And. Period.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [00:54:28] And that's actually right. No, I agree with you. And that's actually my issue with the word balance, because balance implies a scale. It implies if you're doing one, you're not doing the other. And I will tell you, as a mom, it's just total B.S. You never stop being a mom. I mean, I will be in the operating room. You know, taking a spleen out, my phone's going off because someone can't find something at home, right? And I mean, my kids will gladly tell you when I go home and they have a booboo and they know that, like rule number one in the house is no blood, no Band-Aid. I think it's bad, actually. One time my, well we talk about this and like, OK, where is the booboo? Is it on your feelings or is it on, like something that needs a Band-Aid? I mean, sometimes, yes, I do band-aids, but like, if we were going to do a band aid per booboo, gosh I'd be putting my entire paycheck on Band-Aids with two big, huge, rambunctious boys. They like walk into walls, like I just don't understand. But yeah, that's exactly my issue with the word balance. And because it implies that when you're doing one, you're not the other. And then it sets yourself in competition that you will always lose. And I don't care if you work from home. I don't care if you are a stay at home mom. It sets up this oh should I go work out, should I do this hobby, should I take this class that I want to take? Should I start this interest of whatever it is? Anything that's going to take time away from your kids takes time away from your kids. And thank God, I mean lately, more time away from my kids. I love them, most of them. No, I think the thing for me, what I realized is that to be a good mom, you have to be a happy person. I think so often, especially when we talk about becoming mothers, we change our names, I'm not Jamie Coleman anymore. I'm a mom. No, I'm still Jamie Coleman, who is a mom, it's a role, a very important role and very fulfilling role. But it's not all of who I am, because if it's all, if you let it take over, to where that's your entire being you lose yourself. You lose your sense of self. You lose your own sense of accomplishment and happiness as to who you are. And so, I think for me it's, it is better for my children, for me to work 60 hours a week in a job that fulfills me and that I love, then for me to work 30 hours a week in a job that makes me intensely unhappy. Kids feel. Kids, sense. They know when people are unhappy, frustrated, tired. Sometimes they don't do the wrong thing, or they don't do the right thing when they're sensing that. You're like dude give me a break right now, but they sense it. And so, to be the best mom I can be means I need to be the best and most fulfilled Jamie I can be. And so, for me, that's this job. That's to be a trauma surgeon. And I think particularly, we talk about women, I think I try to remind women, you know, we're a village for a reason. I say, you know, I'm, I miss some of my kid's soccer games so I can be there for that other moms child when she can't help him. But I can. So, I very much appreciate the community aspect of moms who volunteer, moms who are the team mom, the snack mom, the classroom mom, we are all so important to each other because we all fill a role that helps all of our children. Whether they need a doctor, a dentist, a teacher. Whatever your child needs, we got it covered. Our lives aren't going to look the same. But again, instead of prescription and focusing on how it looks, focusing on the outcome, which is supporting and giving our children an environment in which they are loved. And I think my biggest piece of advice is to find out who you are and what makes you fulfilled and you are happy, and you feel like you're fulfilling your purpose and your mission statement will make you the best mom possible. Because they're going to feel that love, they're going to feel that dedication to them. Versus if you're unhappy, upset, frustrated with where you are in life, it's harder for them to filter out why someone is upset and children, they're egocentric. They think everything's because of them. So, yeah, it's kind of vague, I guess, but...
Madeline [01:00:45] No, it's entirely true, I mean, I think being happy, happiness is contagious to your children, to your network of people in your life, personally, professionally. If you're happy, that radiates.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [01:00:59] Absolutely.
Madeline [01:01:01] And I think when children feel loved, then they feel like they can go out in the world and be whoever it is that they're going to be too.
Dr. Jamie Coleman [01:01:07] Absolutely.
Madeline [01:01:08] Certainly. So, as we sort of head towards the end of this interview, you know our mission statement is to inspire professional self-confidence in women. And we like to ask this question to all of our guests, which is, what is your best piece of advice to other women for developing specifically professional self-confidence?
Dr. Jamie Coleman [01:01:32] I think professional self-confidence comes from within. My number one thing is you got to stop looking at everybody else and say, well so-and-so got this job or so-and-so got that promotion or so-and-so makes that money or in a lawyer case so and so's won X percentage of their cases, you know it's self-confidence comes from yourself. And I think it's really comes from introspection and figuring out who you are. Your strengths, your weaknesses. What makes you, you? And realizing that that is unique. No one else can do your job like you. No one else can replace you in how you talk to customers or patients or clients, how you relate to your partner as how you lead. No one else can make the same impression on the world around them, like you. And that that has value in of itself, regardless of how that imprint or fingerprint looks. There's value to it because it's unique. There's value to it because you exist. And the value is independent of mistakes that values independent...sometimes, actually, that value comes from making mistakes. It's part of who you are. Your past is what got you here. And I think recognizing your story with the bumps, the highs, the lows, ugly parts you want to skip over. Or deny that are there are still part of your story. And that that has value. And then you're confident in who you are and what you're doing with your life that you know, you are where you are in life. And that you're supposed to be there.
Becca [01:04:20] We hope you enjoyed our episode with Dr. Jamie Coleman. You can follow Jamie on Twitter @JJcolemanMD and on Instagram @Jamiecolemanmd. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed our podcast hit subscribe and leave us a review. Thank you always to our home team of friends and family for supporting us in our mission. This episode was produced and edited by Madeline and Becca. Thanks for tuning in. And remember, you are somebody.