Tiffany Williams is the Associate Director of Advocacy, Empowerment, and Faith at Pepperdine University's Caruso School of Law. In addition to being a law professor, she's also a former administrative law judge, ordained minister, author, and founder and CEO of the Esther Project. Tiffany is a passionate advocate for women and girls globally. She founded the Esther Project with the vision of empowering one million women worldwide to become intentional leaders using their life purpose for the advancement of women and girls. Tiffany is a former administrative law judge and has served as legal adviser to governors and elected officials in New Jersey. On today's episode, Tiffany will discuss why her time on the bench was both empowering and humbling through her incredible experiences in both law and faith. She's discovered her life mission: to empower women to find their purpose. She will share the importance of the de-cluttering process and how to shed the approval addiction by identifying what doesn't serve you.
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Episode #29: Law, faith, and empowerment with Tiffany Williams
Tiffany [00:00:00] Becoming a judge was the scariest thing, coming to work every day and having to go in that courtroom, it challenged my self-confidence every single day down to the very last day that I sat on the bench. Never did I feel any kind of more confident. Now, some of that was, I just think, the reverence for just the weight of the position that you have. But it's also a little challenging to walk into a room. Everyone stands up. You sit at this place that's higher than other people. Everyone's looking at you. That, first of all, is just a very weird and scary dynamic. Everything waits until you start. Everything will stop if you want it to stop. So one, you have to get confident and comfortable with that dynamic.
Madeline and Becca [00:01:03] Welcome to The Madeline and Becca Podcast, the mission of our podcast is simple, to inspire professional self-confidence in women everywhere. I'm Madeline. And I'm Becca. On our podcast, you will hear stories from real world influencers, women who have experienced tremendous success in their careers by building self-confidence. Thanks for joining us.
Becca [00:01:43] On today's episode, Madeline will be interviewing Tiffany Williams. Tiffany is the Associate Director of Advocacy, Empowerment, and Faith at Pepperdine University's Caruso School of Law. In addition to being a law professor, she's also a former administrative law judge, ordained minister, author, and founder and CEO of The Esther Project. Tiffany is a passionate advocate for women and girls globally. She founded The Esther Project with the vision of empowering one million women worldwide to become intentional leaders using their life purpose for the advancement of women and girls. Tiffany is a former administrative law judge and has served as legal adviser to governors and elected officials in New Jersey. On today's episode, Tiffany will discuss why her time on the bench was both empowering and humbling through her incredible experiences in both law and faith. She's discovered her life mission: to empower women to find their purpose. She will share the importance of the de-cluttering process and how to shed the approval addiction by identifying what doesn't serve you. Here's Madeline.
Madeline [00:02:55] We are so excited to welcome the Reverend Tiffany Williams on our podcast today. She is a girl on fire and wears many hats, pastor, former judge, law professor, author and CEO of The Esther Project. So welcome and thank you for being here with us. Thank you for having me.
Tiffany [00:03:12] I'm excited about this conversation. I have been looking forward to it from the moment that we booked it.
Madeline [00:03:19] Well, thank you. So, let's start with your background. Today, we want to know and give our audience a little flavor of what sparked your interest in law.
Tiffany [00:03:30] So, I think my interest was sparked in law as a little girl, I just really had just a vision of being a judge. And I don't know where it came from at the time. You know, now that I'm a little more advanced in my faith, I definitely attribute it to God speaking to me even in that little girl way at like eight or nine years old and thinking about what I wanted to be when I grew up. What I saw was me as a judge. So, I had to learn that in order to be a judge, you have to be a lawyer first. So, I became very interested in the law. And I think as a young girl, I was always passionate about just justice and fairness to the degree that a little girl knows what justice and fairness is. I always wanted my friends to get along. I was always a person that kind of would help people that were having disputes with each other, settle their disputes. And I was always seeking, I think, in my own little girlness to figure out what was right and the right thing to do. And those are kind of the notions of justice that I felt when I was young that led me to the law. So, I went to Rutgers University for my undergraduate degree and for my masters and got exposed to government and public policy and realized that in my career I definitely wanted to pursue an intersection of both law and public policy. So, that's what led me to law school.
Madeline [00:05:10] And so tell us a little bit about that early career. I know that you held different governmental positions. Tell us about what you did.
Tiffany [00:05:18] Sure. I went to Northeastern Law School in Boston and upon...well, before graduating Northeastern, you're required to do four, three month full time internships. And so, the exposure that I had in my internships and law school, and they call them co-ops there. They directly led to the things that I did in my career. So, I'd worked for a law firm. I had interned for an appellate court judge. I worked for the US attorney's office and I worked at the White House. And so, in my legal career, I ended up first out of law school, clerking for an appellate court judge on the Massachusetts appeals court. I worked at the law firm that I had summered at. That became my first professional job after clerking, and I was exposed to civil litigation and some white collar criminal defense. Actually, our law firm represented the FBI agent depicted in the movie, it's a Johnny Depp movie. I can't think of it right now, but Whitey Bulger was on FBI's most wanted, right? And he was exposed because of a corrupt FBI agent, John Connolly. And we, our firm actually represented John Connolly.
Madeline [00:06:41] Oh my goodness!
Tiffany [00:06:41] I will remember the name of it...
Madeline [00:06:43] Is it Black Mass?
Tiffany [00:06:45] Yes, Black Mass. That's it.
Madeline [00:06:46] Yes, it. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Fantastic movie.
Tiffany [00:06:51] Fantastic. Fantastic. So, and interestingly, Whitey Bulger was actually caught in Santa Monica the weekend that I was in Santa Monica. I'm an East Coast girl, normally not in California, but the weekend that I'm in Santa Monica, Whitey Bulger is caught. I just think there's some serendipity there. But anyway, I worked at the law firm and also worked as a federal prosecutor. And that's something I've been exposed to as an intern and then worked at another law firm in New Jersey, also doing civil litigation, but got exposed to representing public entities and governments and some of their litigation. And that led me to make some relationships that caused me to shift over into government. So, in government, I ended up becoming the chief counsel to the New Jersey General Assembly and then the deputy chief counsel to a former governor, Jon Corzine. And that's what led me after that to switch over to becoming a judge. But I had a great legal career exposed to a lot of great leaders, and it really shaped how important I think as a lawyer and just as a woman that has varied interests, how important leadership is as well.
Madeline [00:08:09] So, speak to that a little bit, those lessons that you carried on onto the bench with you.
Tiffany [00:08:15] Yeah, so first I would characterize my experience on the bench as very humbling. It was very empowering, but very humbling. And those are lessons that I learned from my service in government and in legal practice as well to leaders, a lot of times in a civil litigation law firm you're doing work on behalf of large corporations and your client, so to speak, is the general counsel. We're senior lawyers in a legal department, so they are leaders within their organization as well. And I think that all of my experiences before going on the bench with respect to leadership just trained me to know the hard job that it is to be a leader and that your hat is one of service. You're not a dictator. You are one that has to understand the needs of the constituencies that you're serving. You are effective as a leader to the degree that you can not only identify those needs, but also empower others to problem solve as well. So, I feel like I took that perspective with me to the bench. And as cases came before me, I sought to be the leader in the courtroom and to lead justice for every case that I had.
Madeline [00:09:47] So, for our listeners who are not familiar with the process of becoming an administrative law judge, can you just tell us about how you ended up on the bench and then where you actually served as a judge?
Tiffany [00:10:00] Sure. Well, my job part of my job for the governor before I became a judge was that I was a part of that screening process for judges. So, I was an administrative law judge in New Jersey. And New Jersey is a state that appoints its judges as opposed to electing its judges. So, as deputy chief counsel, I oversaw the judicial nomination process. So, I had to work with state senators who ultimately have to give confirmation on judicial appointees. And sometimes they would recommend some of their constituents, the state and county bar associations would weigh in as well, and then just applicants themselves would want to put themselves into consideration. So, we had a screening process that does involve the opinion of all those constituencies. So, when you become a judge, you certainly have to be known in the profession. You should have given some level of service to the profession. Your actual legal services, if you're delivering to clients, is evaluated on a qualitative basis as well to make sure that when you are in the courtroom that you're going to be someone that very experienced lawyers, young lawyers or pro se litigants can see as the leader in the courtroom. So, I had to interview a lot of people to become judges. And so, when it was my time, it was seamless because I knew the process, certainly, but was very humbled that the governor thought of me and considered my credentials to be fitting, to be an administrative law judge and administrative law judge in particular is looking in New Jersey, especially at issues that have affected citizens of the state based on some action of an agency. So, there are some states where you're specialized based on a particular agency. So, there may be administrative law judges in a Department of Labor or at a Department of Environmental Protection. In New Jersey, administrative law judges hear everything. So, one day I could hear a case about child abuse and neglect. Another day it could be a student who got kicked out of going to the prom and they're upset. And on an emergency basis, they have appealed the decision of their school to kick them out the prom. Right? Those are education related issues. But there are more weighty education related issues of school discipline. Also, I could hear special education cases, environmental permitting type cases of motor vehicle franchise cases, all kinds of things. So, I love the experience, especially as an administrative law judge in New Jersey, because every day I was dealing with something different. It wasn't the same thing over and over and over, and it just used my problem solving skills in a new way.
Madeline [00:13:12] I imagine it was fascinating because of your interaction with so many different people and so many different types of law.
Tiffany [00:13:20] Yes, and when I dealt with areas that primarily may have pro se litigants, like, I would even hear welfare cases, cases that involve entitlement to either financial benefits or medical care, Medicare, a lot of times you get to see how people may perceive going to court is on TV and what the reality is. So, I had one woman at one point say, oh, this is not like Judge Judy. I was like, no, ma'am, this is not Judge Judy. This is the real thing. And I'm going to need you to get yourself together a little bit more.
Madeline [00:14:04] You are living it, ma'am. You are living it.
Tiffany [00:14:08] Yes! But I never forget that because it almost made me laugh. But it just reminded me that's where the humility comes in. Every litigant that comes before you does not have a lawyer. So as a judge, you have to have the patience. And while you can't lawyer for people, you have to be patient with them and allow them the opportunity to be heard. Fundamentally, that's what administrative law judges do. They protect people's due process rights before they can have something taken away by the government. They have a due process right, to be notified of that and an opportunity to be heard. So, it was very humbling. And sometimes there were funny stories involved in all the different types of people that I would meet.
Madeline [00:14:59] And one of the things we love, and we talk about on this podcast is professional self-confidence. And obviously, when you are the judge, you are making tough decisions and you have to have a lot of a backbone and self-confidence to be able to be in that position. In addition, obviously, like you said to with humility, can you speak a little bit to that, just the self-confidence you had on the bench?
Tiffany [00:15:23] I am so glad you asked that question, because becoming a judge was the scariest thing. Coming to work every day and having to go in that courtroom, it challenged my self-confidence every single day down to the very last day that I sat on the bench. Never did I feel any kind of more confident. Now, some of that was, I just think the reverence for just the weight of the position that you have. But it's also a little challenging to walk into a room. Everyone stands up, you sit at this place that's higher than other people. Everyone's looking at you. That, first of all, is just a very weird and scary dynamic. Everything waits until you start. Everything will stop if you want it to stop. So one, you have to get confident and comfortable with that dynamic and shift very quickly, because if you don't, then the litigants and the attorneys start and any other witnesses are there, then they're going to doubt and the system and they're not going to have confidence in the system. If the judge comes in and she doesn't know what she's doing or she's not competent, how am I going to get any justice? So, it was, so I felt the weight of all of that every single time that I went on the bench. You know, being a woman, being an African-American woman and looking kind of young. Those were also factors that I had to overcome sometimes wondering what other people's perceptions would be about my competence and my ability to really even handle the proceedings and making sure that their confidence was not undermined by any preconceived biases that they had either. And there were times when I did have to push back on some biases that came out in the courtroom. And so that's where self-confidence comes in too. And I think hearkening back to just those feelings as a little girl of like, you know, when my blood would start to boil over something, I feel like I've always had a passion for justice. So, that would start to kick in when in those moments that I had to take leadership to deal with bias in the courtroom. So, self-confidence is key. It's almost everything, I think, as a judge, not to be mistaken with overconfidence or arrogance.
Madeline [00:18:12] Yeah, that's a really good distinction. Yeah, that's a very good distinction and an important one. And for our listeners who are aspiring to be female judges and who are getting there, I guess for lack of a better term, their sea legs or their heels underneath them to take those steps. Do you have any tips about what helped you in terms of developing self-confidence at that stage of your career?
Tiffany [00:18:35] Well, at that stage, I was only 10 years out of law school, so I was still fairly young as a lawyer. I had been very blessed to have some positions up to that point, though, of trust and leadership in the profession that were unusual I think, for that benchmark in my years of practice. But that exposure to the two environments, legal environments where people were practicing with a high level of excellence definitely helped my self-confidence because they set a standard for me of what excellence is in the practice of law. So, it started with my judge, you know. It actually started in law school. I mean, having worked in the White House Office of Legal Counsel and seeing the high level of excellence and dedication exhibited by lawyers that are serving the president was amazing. So, same as a federal prosecutor at the US attorney's office and same at the law firms that I worked at. I mean, the partners and senior associates that I was working under, they were just bar none, just excellent. So, I was very blessed to be trained in environments of excellence. And as I saw later in my career, I think those were the biggest factors in my self-confidence. Now, certainly having also demystified the selection process, having had that job, that certainly made a difference too and there are a lot of statistics about women in leadership and advancement and women sometimes not applying for a job until they feel like they meet all of the qualifications as opposed to research that shows that men may apply if they have one qualification or maybe none, but I think that they can, right? So, I feel like having had exposure to the process before helped me to overcome that, because I think I do default to that also. If I don't see myself as like highly functioning in a role I'm applying for, which that doesn't even make sense. Right? But that's my thought process. I won't apply. So, I think I check myself now because of the experiences that I've had, and I ask questions of people that have had roles before. That really helps with self-confidence and is probably the biggest advice that I would give to men or women that are looking to possibly become a judge or elevate anywhere in their career. Ask others.
Madeline [00:21:20] That's great, absolutey great advice. So, when you got to a point, one of the things we love to talk about also on this podcast is people who have sort of switched lanes. So, you retired from the bench and became a professor. So, tell us about that decision making process and how you made the transition.
Tiffany [00:21:40] That was probably the most pivotal point in my development as a person. I had decided that I wanted to pursue my purpose and that I knew that I was more than just the title of a judge. And I got to a point where I had to decide whether the role of a judge was the best place for me to fulfill my purpose because I am bigger than just a judge. Now, that was a process that it took me to come to that revelation, and that was about a six or seven year process. But it coincided with me, you mentioned in my introduction that I lead The Esther Project. So, that all coincided with me having gone on a journey of starting this women's empowerment movement that encourages women to find their purpose. And that was birthed, as I talk about it in my book, in the first chapter that the week before I got sworn in as a judge, I broke up with my man ladies. OK, so there was never a more vulnerable time in a woman's life, right? When love doesn't go the way you want it to go. So, I was really feeling particularly, you know, broken, embarrassed. I mean, my swearing in was coming up, all this here I am at the pinnacle of what I have always wanted in my career. Yet there's this other side of my desires and being married that I had not yet achieved. And here was just another reminder of will you ever achieve this? Well that all led me to, as I am a pastor and I had to at the same time as well, keep it all together, not only start this new career as a judge, but I had to speak at a women's conference at my church and my parents, the pastors of our church. So, you know, everyone's looking at the pastor's daughter, right? What's she talking about? So, everything coincided for me that day to share the message that became the theme of The Women's Empowerment Project. I shared the story of Queen Esther from the Bible, who was a young Jewish woman who became queen in Persia. She was a racial minority, but she became queen at a time when there was a genocide threat to Jews in Persia. So, she's the woman who can use her voice, which she did influence the king, who she's married to, who she has favor with. And she used her voice for something bigger than her. And that was a part of her purpose. And God positioned her to be there in a place of leadership to help improve the lives of others. So, that was the message that I shared with others that day. It became this movement of The Esther project, and it also became the embodiment of my life and finding my purpose. So, after spending six years as a judge and also working The Esther project, I realized that my purpose is to empower women to discover their purpose. And I wanted to do it in an environment where I could just speak a little more freely and do things that a judge is restricted from doing. So, that's what led me to shift to academia. I'd always been teaching and loved engaging with students and teaching. So, it just that's an extension of who I am too. So, it all fit together for this next season of my life. And I started it at Seton Hall in New Jersey. And then a few years later, this opportunity opened up for me to move to where I had always, since I was young, wanted to move Southern California. So now I'm living my best life in Malibu, fulfilling my purpose.
Madeline [00:25:47] Sounds so fabulous. I love it. So, can you just tell our listeners, what do you do today? What is your role at Pepperdine?
Tiffany [00:25:53] So, I am the Associate Director of Advocacy, Empowerment and Faith, which is a mouthful, but I lead some advocacy programs for students and help them to prepare in the real world to get into court and particularly in appellate courts and maybe even in the Supreme Court of the United States to be able to argue compelling issues. I also lead women's empowerment efforts as well and faith and interfaith based efforts. So, I started an interfaith Bible study about the story of Esther, so we've been studying that and the leadership lessons, and I'm starting a series of women's summits to particularly look at systematic gaps that we have in the advancement of women of color in our society. So, we started this fall with I hosted a black women in the law summit, and it was phenomenal. And these summits are for all women, for not only just black women, to examine the systemic issues that may be harming black women's advancement, but for allies of black women, because as women, we have to look at who is most vulnerable to not being able to succeed. Just like an Esther story, she was used in order to advance the needs of those who are most vulnerable, and everyone benefits as a result of that.
Madeline [00:27:25] I love that story of Esther. I mean, really, it's just as relevant today, I mean, through all of time, right?
Tiffany [00:27:31] It is. And we encourage women and men. Right? Because it's about the spirit of Esther. So, you may not feel like you have an inner queen, guys, but it's the spirit of the woman that you also can embody. But I believe we're living in an Esther, moment. This is the time the pandemic has opened up a lot of things. There is a clearer spotlight on the need to fight racial injustice. There is a moral imperative. There's a political imperative. There's a faith imperative. And there's just a societal imperative that we get serious about justice and equality and what it looks like and what our role is. And I think revealing that Esther inside of us will advance us as a society where we need to go.
Madeline [00:28:29] So, tell us a little bit about what The Esther project is and what you actually do in terms of both the mission and then the actual implementation.
Tiffany [00:28:39] So, our goal is to encourage women to find their purpose. And our tagline is we empower women to empower the world. So, just like Esther didn't just enjoy the comforts of being queen just for herself, she used her position to help others. We're encouraging women to also pay it forward as well. What is your purpose? How are you launching it into the world? And so, I believe as I talked about leadership earlier, that developing leadership skills, it is also an important factor in being able to launch your purpose into the world. So, we provide some programing that is personal development and leadership development oriented. We have actually a six month challenge and campaign that we go on every year with women throughout the world, in Africa, in South America and Central America, Saudi Arabia, all throughout the United States, who take this six month period and do these weekly personal development challenges. Some women, and they're divided into phases that correspond to principles to incorporate in your life. So, for example, the first one is focus on self-care. The last one is focused on leadership development. We also focus on wellness, financial development, communication, networking. So, every month I'll have a conference call or now zoom to gather women for us to talk about that months challenge. And we also have summits and conferences and retreats that we'll do as well all around these themes and bringing examples of modern day Esther's to talk to women and also tell them their story and how they're living with passion and purpose. And since the pandemic, the latest thing we added was a monthly webinar called Breakfast at Tiffany's, where we interview women who are living with passion and purpose. And I give some good breakfast tips, too, because I love breakfast. A great way for us to come together as women.
Madeline [00:30:43] And you are so right. And we've heard from so many of our listeners and our guests about how the pandemic has brought a lot of different things into focus. And I think one of those topics is a lot of people are taking a step back professionally from their careers and saying, am I living intentionally? Am I living out my passion and purpose in my life and in my career? So, for those women who are on that sort of that journey of thinking through their life and where they want it to go, do you have any good advice about taking those first steps and discovering what it is that you're meant to do in the world?
Tiffany [00:31:19] Yes. First, I will commend those who are contemplating it or in the midst of thinking about it. You are on the precipice of discovering your undeniable power. I have never felt more powerful than when I discovered my purpose and gained the courage to live it out as well. It is a game changer. So, first of all, know that you're on the right path and the path to life fulfillment. Second, it starts by how we start The Esther Project Challenge. Our pre-challenges is called de-clutter. So first, there's some de-cluttering that is necessary in your life. De-cluttering is more than just things. There are mindsets that we have to declare. There are people, relationships, habits. I had to de-clutter texting so much. There are many people who are like, why don't you text? I'm like, no, it's too over... No, no. I haven't determined what my mode of communication will be on the phone that I pay for. Right? So, no one can dictate to me how they're going to communicate with me. That street goes one way for me to others. And so, that was something that I had to clutter even the approval addiction. I had to clutter some I discovered what are the things, I was thinking about in de-cluttering, what are the things that just do not serve you? Where are the areas that you're struggling with kind of over and over? I have this battle back and forth with like whether I'm exercising like crazy all the time or not at all, or am I losing weight? Am I on a diet? All of this stuff. So, I realized that there were some negative self-body image thoughts that were not serving me that I had to de-clutter as well. So first, identifying areas that are just not serving you. And what can I de-clutter from that? Second, looking at your own self-care, putting the oxygen mask on yourself first, you cannot help others until you are served. So, looking intentionally about what's your morning routine? What's evening routine? How much sleep are you getting? These are things that we do in The Esther Project too intentionally. And then the last point I would say to kind of most immediately look at after de-clutter and self-care is what do you love to do? If you, when you were a little girl or if you could do your girlhood all over again and you can be in your room by yourself with no one bothering you, what would you be doing all day? For me, I love the arts, singing, writing, imagining things, I had a model UN situation going on. I had mono political debates. As a little girl! But that all ties to the things that I love to do and writing, reading. So, I would say really dream again and get real with what is it that you love to do and start doing it. If you only take five minutes out in the bathroom with the door closed, do it! Everything will start, I think really from there.
Madeline [00:34:41] That is, it's so inspiring to hear you say that and also the courage that you've had in your own career to figure out what your purpose and passion is. And it's very clear from your energy that this is your purpose and your passion. And I want to speak to one small, I guess this is a very granular point that you mentioned, but it's something that's come up on the podcast, which is overcoming approval addiction, I think is what you called it. And we have found that it has been very challenging, particularly when we're all in a period of isolation and social media and seeking that verification or outside approval when perhaps maybe on paper you look incredibly professionally successful, but you're unfulfilled. Can you speak to any suggestions or advice you might have on the process of shaking that approval addiction, the need for it?
Tiffany [00:35:29] Yes, and I'm glad that you asked this question, too, because I could not let this interview go by without also sharing that there are obstacles that I have had to overcome that have been a part of that process of shaking approval addiction. So, we heard about many of these wonderful experiences I've had. I also didn't mention, I was also deputy assistant secretary of state for New Jersey as well in government service. But some of these jobs I was let go of. So, when you are facing something as real, negative and emotional as the bottom being pulled out from under you, which was the perception I had at the time, being a young professional and so much of my life riding on my professional identity, those were times when I had to shake the approval addiction because what was it saying about me if I was looking to my job to validate me? Yet, on more than one occasion, I had been let go from a job. And I mean, it's a whole other podcast, some of the craziness that I've encountered in my career and what one may have to kind of overcome and the injustices that can also occur in these positions that you have professionally. But it helps you to overcome approval addiction, because I remember laying on my couch at one point and thinking, like, what am I going to do next? How can I ever become a judge? How can I ever overcome the embarrassment of this? But that is actually when I really discovered who I was. It's in adversity. And when you do let go of the approval addiction, you are forced to confront, who are you really? So, why are you laying here on the couch if you know who you are, you are just trying to then get up and assign your gifts to another employer? It's not personal. So, having had to learn that lesson more through more than one adversity, that really helped me to break approval addiction. And what I discovered is this beautiful woman inside once I took off the mask of what I thought I had to do in my career to have these little chips to become a judge one day. And that's where I'm saying your power really, really lies when you can take off the mask, when you can say authentically, I know who I am, not what I do at work, I know who I am. I know the values that I hold dear. I know how I respond to adversity. I know how to separate out not letting my emotions rule and control me. I know, and as a woman of faith, it just made it easier for me. Like, I know that God created me like in nineteen-seventy- three. I'm aging myself here right? June 2nd. To be a forty-seven year old woman in twenty during this pandemic when God created me, he knew who I'd be. He knew the gifts I'd have. He knew the passion I'd have. He created me to be relevant in this world. And so, when we can get really clear about our own significance in the world and that nobody can take it away because they didn't give it to you, you will overcome approval addiction.
Madeline [00:39:29] That is just, it's amazing and I think so relevant for so many of our listeners who are facing that and have to sort of shed all the exterior stuff to get really clear on the interior.
Tiffany [00:39:43] Yes, yes. And that's power. That is power. Power is not money. Power is not how you look. Power is not what position you have. Power is knowing who you are and having the integrity to remain who you are in any given situation.
Madeline [00:40:06] Personal, professional and all relationships and in all situations.
Tiffany [00:40:09] Absolutely.
Madeline [00:40:12] Can you tell us a little bit, obviously, faith is a huge part of your life and you've been ordained, can you tell us about that part of your life? When did you actually decide to do that and how did that take shape? I know you said your parents were, you're the pastor's daughter.
Tiffany [00:40:27] Yes.
Madeline [00:40:27] Obviously it's been throughout your whole life that you've witnessed has been a faith filled life. But tell us about it.
Tiffany [00:40:31] Yeah, well, it has been a faith filled life, but I didn't always have the vision of me being a minister or a pastor or anything like that, even though my parents were. But I came to faith very early. I'm a Born Again Christian. I believe I was about eight years old. And when I just had the realization that I wanted to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as the head of my life, my parents were also on their, on a spiritual journey at that time. And they had re-dedicated their lives to the Lord as well. And they really made just a shift of intentionality in their life to be more intentional about their faith. They were always good people, but there was this shift that kind of occurred that I am so blessed to have witnessed because it became a powerful example to me of just how to live with intentionality, whatever it is you're doing. So, they went into ministry. My dad was minister for a long time, and so I just kind of watch that, it was a part of my life. But then there came the point in time with maturity, you have to know your own sense of spirituality, your faith confession for yourself, and not just profess like what your parents profess. So, I think it was in some of those times of challenge, whether it was relationship challenge or having lost a job, being embarrassed, feeling like no one understands me. That is what really caused me, I think at one point to dig very deep. And I realized at that time that I was called, I really felt like the calling. So, while I knew the Lord and I felt like I was incorporating my faith into my life, there was this deeper calling that I recognized. I didn't know at the time it was a calling to preach. I knew it was a calling into ministry. And I viewed ministry as being something that we can all do. Right? You just use your gifts and you just serve humanity through your gifts and God gets the glory from that. Well, as I continued to just kind of be more intentional about my faith, I just became clearer that no, like God was actually calling me to use my voice and to use my voice and my intellect and my writing to help other people to understand Christian biblical principles and how they apply to their life and how they just show people how much they are loved and cherished by God. And that's the essence of what a minister and a pastor does. And as I advanced in my preaching ministry, I was ordained as a pastor. And really, I'm a pastor of outreach of evangelism at my church. I still serve virtually with my parents church, which is a New Jersey. But in birthing The Esther Project, there are a whole community of women throughout the world that look to me as their pastor as well as I'm helping them to birth their purpose. So, it has been an amazing ride of discovery. And God has shown me that he takes all things, the good and the bad, and he turns them around for his good. So, if we just hang in there in the dark times, it's not the end of the story. It's just a chapter. Just keep turning the pages. So, anyone who's going through a low moment, a dark moment, a lonely moment, one in which you even doubt that God even exists, he does. He's there. Just keep turning the page. Just keep turning the page. It's not the end of the story.
Madeline [00:44:29] It's so true and I feel like perhaps this is a season, just a season for a lot of people and as we know how seasons go, obviously different in Southern California, but here in the Northeast and New Jersey seasons, right? I mean, it's the world is kind of going to sleep. It's a dark time. But you're right, the pages do turn. And for, I want to just go back a little bit to discovering your professional purpose, because I think that's just such an important topic for so many women right now at this moment in time. So, thinking about taking those first steps in terms of looking back at what you felt as a little girl, that was really important. Do you have any, like, concrete things that women can do? Is it writing it down? Is it talking to family and friends to kind of help bring that back forward into the present?
Tiffany [00:45:19] I love vision boards. I love vision boards. We do that in The Esther Project as well. When I think back in my childhood, I just, I just had a vision of me being a judge. And that's kind of how kids think. You know, there's your imagination, there's the power of like this picture you see in your mind. So, I think as adults we can do that. We're not encouraged to do that, but I encourage everyone to consider a vision board, which is just a visual representation of how you see yourself. And in every area of your life, where do you see yourself living? Where do you see yourself? How do you see yourself engaging with others? Are you a parent? Are you in a relationship? Are you married? What do you see? How do you see yourself serving others? What are the gifts that are inside of you that you know are there and what to use? And what makes you mad? The things that make you mad, put that on your vision board, too, because maybe you're meant to stamp that out. So, I think vision boards are important. And if you don't, and so vision board is like you can get those images from a magazine and cut them out and put them. And it doesn't have to be fancy. I have my law students sometimes do vision boards and we just take a piece of paper and you can draw things on it or write words on it. And the most powerful thing I saw with this exercise is how I know it works. I had the privilege of speaking to men and women who were in the drug court program in New Jersey, Passaic County, and one of my students in a class had a capstone project to have like an empowerment conference for the drug court participants. And so, I was talking about vision and doing a vision board to this room full of kind of tough, you know been through it, men and women of various ages and walks of life. And I had them come up to the poster board and to just write words that represented their vision of themselves. When I tell you there were grown men and women crying and weeping as they articulated their vision of themselves because they're going through this realization of like, this is the dream I had for myself. This drug court participant is not the dream I had for myself. And so how do I reconcile kind of where I know in my heart that maybe I've even been suppressing or maybe I'm not suppressing it, but I just don't know how to get there. And that's maybe why I'm involved and caught in this addiction in some way or negative kind of activity. So, I think there is power in articulating what's inside of you, draw it out in whatever form you can. Get it out of you.
Madeline [00:48:22] It's so nice to have a visual. I think visuals, we are visual creatures. So, to actually, I agree that having just a vision board where you actually say, look, on a one page, here's a vision, it's tangible.
Tiffany [00:48:35] Yes.
Madeline [00:48:36] There it is. It's almost like you're manifesting it into the world.
Tiffany [00:48:40] You really are because it starts in you, but it can't stay in you. And think of how many talented people we know that go their whole life with the best part of them inside of them still. So, I think drawing it out is also some personal accountability for us, too. I have a sign right above my computer in front of my desk that I look at that reminds me, I get to work at my purpose daily serving God and empowering women. It's just my reminder, I had to get it out, like even though I know that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. You know, when I have a tough student in class, I can just look right up here and remember to stay focused. So, I think visuals give us accountability also.
Madeline [00:49:31] And as you've shifted your life and made all of these changes, do you feel like your life has taken on a completely different shape since you have embraced living your own fullness of potential and purpose?
Tiffany [00:49:45] Absolutely. I live in a whole different part of the country. I don't know if, I mean, I'm very close with my family. We are very, very, very close. So, it was you know, I was Jersey bound for life, I thought. And I'm still a Jersey girl living in a California world. But yes, I live in a totally different place, I have palm trees instead of like the autumn leaves right outside. I just have a whole different circle. And but most importantly, I'm still dreaming. I'm still dreaming. You know, there are, there's the next level of dreams and visions that I have that feel just as daunting. Right? As when I was the little girl who was a judge. So, I want to take this message of women's empowerment and finding your purpose. And I want to use the medium of television and film in order to get content out there of modern day Esther's. And how do women who are not Real Housewives, right? How do real women actually achieve their goals, interact with their friends, support each other? That is lacking, I think, in the powerful medium of television and film. And so that's a gap that I really want to fill in. But I'm not a filmmaker. I didn't study broadcast television. So, I am at the point in my journey because of the successes of following my purpose, that I'm no longer going to give in to the fear of the unknown at this point in my journey. There's still the fear, but I'm not giving in anymore to the fear. It's not stopping me from moving forward anymore.
Madeline [00:51:39] And, I think a lot of women feel that fear of the unknown right now and have.
Tiffany [00:51:45] Yes.
Madeline [00:51:46] You know, during this this season, what helps you? Is it faith that helps you not to give in to that fear? Because I know we all have that moment where we sort of have, we feel breathless, like, am I going to be able to do this? Am I going to be able to step forward into whatever the next thing is or my dreams? What helps you to not give in to the fear and stay within a zone that might be just sort of the same?
Tiffany [00:52:11] Definitely my faith, which is my spiritual core. So, we talk a lot about our physical fitness. We talk a lot about our mental fitness, our intellect. But we have a spirit. We have a spirit. And our spirit is what is really kind of the essence. It's the manifestation of the essence of what we believe in. So, while you may not have the same you know, worldview and spiritual beliefs that I do, you should discover what is it that you believe and increase your spiritual core. And that is what I have found in my life that has caused me to, first of all, know that the fear is natural and except that the fear may not go away, but the fear, maybe the fear is not there to stop me. Maybe the fear is there to remind me of how great this pursuit is and how worth this pursuit is, because otherwise there wouldn't be this fear. You know, fear has another connotation too. Y'all got me preaching on here now. You know that right? So, fear has another connotation. Fear can be reverence also. So, if we turn that fear, which is also an acronym someone told me are false evidence appearing real, if we turn that into the fear of the like reverence of the privilege and maybe the weight of like how amazing it is that we get to have the choice that we have in life and everyone does not have the same type of choices, but fundamentally, we do. We do. We absolutely do. So, starting at that real spiritual core is what I think can help us when we feel trapped or stuck, which is normal and a cycle of life. But your spiritual core is what can help you still take that teeny weeny weeny little step forward to get unstuck, just one little step at a time. Yeah, like I've been stuck with exercise, OK, since the pandemic. I'm a gym person. I don't like working out, I like segments. I'm a very segmented person. So, my workouts occur at a particular place, the gym. So, the gym is closed. So, I have not totally adapted. So, I had to literally the other day say that my accountability this week and I told my best friend, hold me accountable. I am going to put a weight in my hand. I did not commit to even raising it up, putting it back down, doing so many reps because I had tried that for months and would just fail and feel bad. And then I'm stressed out and then I can't sleep because I'm stressed out, because I'm like, oh my God, just drama, right? So, I realize let me just take a teeny weeny, tiny step. And so, I did it, I just, I put the weight in my hand and, you know, and that has led to now this week, just like actually using it. But I don't have an intentional workout. Right? And I'm a workout person so this is very slow for me. But I had gotten so stuck that I had to take it back to a very tiny, tiny steps to get momentum going. And that's OK for us to do it when we're feeling fear.
Madeline [00:55:50] I know in that analogy can be used in all things.
Tiffany [00:55:53] Yes.
Madeline [00:55:53] Just one thing, picking up the weight, maybe that's a phone call to a friend to have them help you think through something or whatever that one step is can be applied, I think, to all segments of life.
Tiffany [00:56:05] Yes. And not being afraid to drill it down more because I'm an overachiever. Absolutely. So, this like if you told me I'd be doing this, like last year, I'd be like that is a waste of time. That's a waste of time. But no, knowing that if calling a friend is too much, why don't you just write the friend's name down on a sticky. Just start with that. Just start with that and just sit with that. And then when you can move the next step, move the next step, that's OK too. Sometimes we're there in life and that's OK.
Madeline [00:56:39] Right. Start by making your bed or whatever it is.
Tiffany [00:56:42] Yes, yes.
Madeline [00:56:45] Same principle. There's just, there's so much inspiring stuff that you've said today, Tiffany, it's just, it's overwhelming and amazing. And as we sort of head towards the end of the interview, I want to just circle back and talk once again about self-confidence, because we talked a little bit about how you had it earlier in your career. So many amazing high achieving ethical role models that you have. But you sort of look back at this juncture of your career, forty-seven, lots of dreaming going on in your life. From where you sit today, to what do you attribute your professional success and self-confidence?
Tiffany [00:57:29] First, I would say the benefit of having models in my home of self-confidence in my parents. My parents are people of integrity who just did not strive after just like things and notoriety. They are very humble servants that really take a lot of time to be intimately involved in people's lives. And they’re brilliant. And I see how, like, if they really wanted to be kind of the way we see models of certain things and even ministries in society right now, they could have planes, private planes and jets and large congregations of people fawning all over them. But I, like their confidence in doing what God called them to do, has without seeking any fanfare, but like resting in the confidence of, I am getting up every day and doing what I know God has ordained me to do here on Earth. No matter what anybody says, no matter what anybody thinks and no matter what the financial renumeration is, because they would rather please God than to please other people. That is the most profound example that helps me to have self-confidence based on my purpose and like who I am. So, that example from my parents, which is then rooted to my faith, I want to serve God and I want God to be pleased that I am his representative here on Earth. So, looking at people that he created here with compassionate eyes, serving their needs and knowing that my needs will get served when I am down or I'm in need because he's speaking to other people too who he will cause to interact with me. So, that gives me a lot of self-confidence. I'm OK. I'm going to be OK. But, having a proven track record of having been down and seeing how I was lifted up over time, that also gives you self-confidence. So, sometimes we don't want to necessarily think about the adversity that resilience brings out. But to be resilient, you've got to hit something hard to know that you have the bounce back. But we've got the bounce back.
Becca [01:00:24] We hope you enjoyed our interview with Tiffany. You can learn about The Esther Project at iamesther.org. Be sure to follow her on Instagram @Chiefesther. Tiffany's first book, The Esther Project: Every Woman's Guide to Living with Passion and Purpose is available on Amazon. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed our podcast hit, subscribe and leave us a review. Thank you always to our home team of friends and family for supporting us in our mission. This episode was produced and edited by Madeline and Becca. Thanks for tuning in. And remember, you are somebody.